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On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op).
I'm not discussing jungler on other positions because i'm not knowledgeable on it.
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On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op).
his argument was based on the jungler being the 4th position, so the argument isn't so much weather or not cowl is a good first item out of the jungle so much as, is cowl a good first item as 4th position.
still trying to think of how to word my responce because you are arguing against things that aren't even the point pX, gimme a min
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On October 04 2013 07:44 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op).
his argument was based on the jungler being the 4th position, so the argument isn't so much weather or not cowl is a good first item out of the jungle so much as, is cowl a good first item as 4th position. still trying to think of how to word my responce because you are arguing against things that aren't even the point pX, gimme a min
you still don't seem to understand my suggestion. that cowl madreds as a whole is a replacement for golem spirit. you seem to be under the influence of cowl post golem.
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you are tunneling too hard on Cowl + Madreds vs. Golem, when the real question is, why would I buy cowl when I am expected by my team to make a team based mr item anyway? not to mention going madreds makes not going merc treds dicy, eliminating one of the best items for snowballing your team (mobiles) or probly the most cost efficient armor item in the game (tabi)
yea I get that you aren't building golem, I don't see how cowl is ever a useful first purchase on 4th position.
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On October 04 2013 05:56 Mauzel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:31 Seuss wrote:On October 04 2013 05:08 YouGotNothin wrote:
I just wanted to come out of lurking to say that I am really liking this in depth Shyvana discussion, it seems we are kind of spinning our wheels at this point but it has sure been thought provoking, and somehow managed to stay civil. This is what TL GD should be about! It's an interesting discussion based on a bad premise. Many of Mauzel's conclusions hinge on the idea that itemization is important for killing dragon and stealing buffs. The truth is that even in Silver play killing dragon and counter-jungling are 95% player positioning/lane situations/vision and 5% itemization. If you're consistently taking free dragons solo it's because your lanes are winning the game for you. It's irrelevant whether killing dragons is 100% or 5% itemization when you are comparing two item builds. Furthermore, it's not just that I am consistently taking free dragons. The fact that I can take dragon by myself, (regardless of whether I do it or not) is pressure in and of itself. You can ult into pit and pink it and see if there are any wards. Sometimes players place wards such that they cannot see inside the pit. You cannot take advantage of this situation if you have ancient golem.
The relationship between itemization and killing dragons is hardly irrelevant. If it's 100% itemization then a build's dragon killing potential is critical, but if it's only 5% then it's barely a tertiary concern.
My fundamental point was that a champion's ability to kill dragon is not all that important. What matters is the state of the game, and whether dragon can be taken safely and uncontested. This is largely a function of where your teammates are, where your opponents are, where the opposing jungle is, whether your lanes are winning or losing, and what vision the enemy team has. Itemization is really at the bottom of the list.
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On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op).
Not to derail the discussion, but it's clearly debatable if Meteos' farm-heavy style is actually a net-benefit to the team (in the abstract) as it puts lots of pressure on the laners to outplay their opposition while handicapped. Additionally there's all the multiplicative item scaling that LoL does that incentivizes major farm funneling. Which is to say, crushing NA all summer is a questionable metric of success at best.
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On October 04 2013 07:56 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op). Not to derail the discussion, but it's clearly debatable if Meteos' farm-heavy style is actually a net-benefit to the team (in the abstract) as it puts lots of pressure on the laners to outplay their opposition while handicapped. Additionally there's all the multiplicative item scaling that LoL does that incentivizes major farm funneling. Which is to say, crushing NA all summer is a questionable metric of success at best.
I don't think its debatable that there are champions within the pool of junglers that can provide the role of a 1-3 position. Of course whether or not C9 effectively drafts around that decision is definitely up for debate. as is whether or not that sort of draft decision is strictly better than otherwise.
On October 04 2013 07:53 Slusher wrote:
you are tunneling too hard on Cowl + Madreds vs. Golem, when the real question is, why would I buy cowl when I am expected by my team to make a team based mr item anyway? not to mention going madreds makes not going merc treds dicy, eliminating one of the best items for snowballing your team (mobiles) or probly the most cost efficient armor item in the game (tabi)
yea I get that you aren't building golem, I don't see how cowl is ever a useful first purchase on 4th position.
DO you agree that in situations where your team relies on the 4th position to be effective, that itemization that allows the 4th position to be more effective throughout that time is preferable to itemization that is less effective during that time frame?
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On October 04 2013 05:46 Requizen wrote:
As someone who knows little about the EU scene and less about cars, so what do you guys think of Mafia Jinx? Worth the money or is base better?
"What's in my violin case? Violence."
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On October 04 2013 08:04 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:46 Requizen wrote:
As someone who knows little about the EU scene and less about cars, so what do you guys think of Mafia Jinx? Worth the money or is base better? "What's in my violin? Violence."
I admit its kind of lame that she has a near identical catch phrase as her nemesis.
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On October 04 2013 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 07:44 Slusher wrote:On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op).
his argument was based on the jungler being the 4th position, so the argument isn't so much weather or not cowl is a good first item out of the jungle so much as, is cowl a good first item as 4th position. still trying to think of how to word my responce because you are arguing against things that aren't even the point pX, gimme a min you still don't seem to understand my suggestion. that cowl madreds as a whole is a replacement for golem spirit. you seem to be under the influence of cowl post golem.
I think you are criminally underrating Golem's stats while you tunnel on Madred's+Cowl. Also, the naked negatron is such an awkward buy early on for a jungler. Armor/MR early are not good investments because you have so much flat stats from your base stats and runes/masteries, HP is strictly superior. I really can't see any argument for a Madred's based build on a jungler who does so much ability based damage in its clear and has no problem clearing without it.
If I'm building an argument against golem, it probably involves sitting on Machete/Spirit stone for awhile, or just starting DBlade because you can rely on getting a great leash in a controlled environment.
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On October 04 2013 08:06 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 04 2013 07:44 Slusher wrote:On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op).
his argument was based on the jungler being the 4th position, so the argument isn't so much weather or not cowl is a good first item out of the jungle so much as, is cowl a good first item as 4th position. still trying to think of how to word my responce because you are arguing against things that aren't even the point pX, gimme a min you still don't seem to understand my suggestion. that cowl madreds as a whole is a replacement for golem spirit. you seem to be under the influence of cowl post golem. I think you are criminally underrating Golem's stats while you tunnel on Madred's+Cowl. Also, the naked negatron is such an awkward buy early on for a jungler. Armor/MR early are not good investments because you have so much flat stats from your base stats and runes/masteries, HP is strictly superior. I really can't see any argument for a Madred's based build on a jungler who does so much ability based damage in its clear and has no problem clearing without it. If I'm building an argument against golem, it probably involves sitting on Machete/Spirit stone for awhile, or just starting DBlade because you can rely on getting a great leash in a controlled environment.
I'm "tunnelling" on madred cowl, because that's where the discussion is being held. I'm also tunneling away form lizard elder spirit as well, but no one is mentioning that because its irrelevant. I'd suggesting situations in which madred cowl is superior to golem, discussing anything else would be off topic. Golem is good in many situations, but when your team need you to be effective prior to that 2k gold mark as well as closely after at the 3k mark, madred cowl provides more fighting presence for the jungler, which leads to an advantage over the golem parts and post golem buildup. I'm definitely not underrating golem, but rather saying its not superior to alternatives in 100% of cases. which is something slusher is trying to argue.
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it's not an argument specific to Shyvana, the only thing specific here is
first item purchase on a team which is actively funneling gold, and you are 4th position.
my argument is simply in any situation where cowl is actually a logical purchase (other team has a good amount of magic damage and you are looking to tank) Aegis is a superior first item. (you get the mr you wanted as well as some for your team)
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On October 04 2013 08:14 Slusher wrote:
it's not an argument specific to Shyvana, the only thing specific here is
first item purchase on a team which is actively funneling gold, and you are 4th position.
my argument is simply in any situation where cowl is actually a logical purchase (other team has a good amount of magic damage and you are looking to tank) Aegis is a superior first item. (you get the mr you wanted as well as some for your team) If you are in a position in which you need to team fight only, (and not participate in skirmishes, nor act independently, but rather support early game roles in their job) then yes. but thats not even close to the situations i was discussing as cowl madreds being good in.
equally I feel thornmail is bad against a team of 5 AP casters, but we aren't discussing that either.
IF you as a position are required to make the plays needed for your team to maintain or get an advantage there is nothing aegis gives you that madreds cowl doesn't give as well. and cheaper and with much less sacrifice on your jungling speed.
you seem to try to argue against me by discussion situations outside of the realms of the conversation. This is equivalent to a discussion about void staff as a fast item against quick locket and you discuss about situations where the enemy builds no magic resistance. yes of course void staff is inferior in those situations, but they are not the topic of discussion
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In a game in which cowl would be good, Locket would be good, as the game stands now, it is the 4th positions job to build Locket.
why am I delaying locket by building a cowl?
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To be honest, it's more of SotG hitting a very nice timing window for a jungler than anything else comparative. While armor and MR are both respectively useful with Cowl building into a very nice item that CAN be useful in certain niche scenarios, it's pretty much not worth arguing since we expect that competitive players will make proper adjustments if the match requires it.
PS. I do think SV is more useful than locket in a variety of different situations. For example, if their team has a singular fed AP burst source, you're going to prefer SV over locket.
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On October 04 2013 07:11 Amethyst21 wrote:RIOT's New Challenger LeagueSponsored by Coke Zero! An awesome and needed move imo. Nice sponsorship too
That's really good. Gives NA an NLB, aka a way to grow new talent and transition our good solo q players into pro players.
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I'm just trying to understand why I would blow 720g on a Negatron cloak for "skirmishing" how am I going to take so much magic damage from 1-3 champions that the difference between it and a null magic will be relevant?
if my team requires me to "make plays" how is a negatron going to help me more than 1 dblade?
I just don't understand when a cowl would be a good item to rush from a 4th position.
On October 04 2013 08:23 KissBlade wrote:
PS. I do think SV is more useful than locket in a variety of different situations. For example, if their team has a singular fed AP burst source, you're going to prefer SV over locket.
again an ap terrorizing your team is a good situation for locket, unless you plan to 1v1 them, which would just not be the 4th positions job.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 04 2013 07:40 remedium wrote:
I think defaulting the jungler to 3rd/4th position is not an intelligent mindset in the context of individual player skill. Meteos is clearly the best player on C9, thus he takes the farm and buffs. As such, any ranked team should give farm to the jungler as 2nd position if he is the best player (ADC typically being number one because AA op).
And a team should have support as their 3rd position if their support player is the best.
In short, no.
There is too much efficiency in farming jungle creeps, roaming and warding with 1 champion instead of dividing the duties around, because all of those things require the champion to be out of a lane. Roaming and warding distracts from accumulating gold, therefore the champion who does this usually gets 4th position.
In some circumstances, given favourable (or strangely unfavourable) picks, you can end up with having a jungler in 3rd position, maybe when your solo laner has strong teamfight abilities that you wish to utilize shortly after hitting lvl6 or when your solo laner is unable to lane against his enemy due to the matchup.
I don't see why you would prioritize the farm of a jungler over a middle laner, 2nd position jungler is just silly.
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On October 04 2013 08:28 Slusher wrote:I'm just trying to understand why I would blow 720g on a Negatron cloak for "skirmishing" how am I going to take so much magic damage from 1-3 champions that the difference between it and a null magic will be relevant? if my team requires me to "make plays" how is a negatron going to help me more than 1 dblade? I just don't understand when a cowl would be a good item to rush from a 4th position. Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 08:23 KissBlade wrote:
PS. I do think SV is more useful than locket in a variety of different situations. For example, if their team has a singular fed AP burst source, you're going to prefer SV over locket. again an ap terrorizing your team is a good situation for locket, unless you plan to 1v1 them, which would just not be the 4th positions job.
Sometimes your job is to primary initiate and soak up the burst. Visage is a clear step up to Locket as far as personal items go. I don't think the Locket vs SV argument on junglers is necessarily that straight forward.
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EPT
