That new Olaf... if he gets fed so painful to deal with. Just LOLOLOLS through cc. I didnt play much when he was OP before so I never had to deal with this.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

October 03 2013 23:48 GMT

#902

On October 04 2013 08:33 Scip wrote:

I don't see why you would prioritize the farm of a jungler over a middle laner, 2nd position jungler is just silly.

In this meta, its probably silly, but only due to how powerful those mid champions are right now.

in metas in which 4 protect 1 is common, giving your jungler, who often can protect and tank better than a mid champion does, priority over the mid farmer, it make sense.

Scip

Czech Republic11293 Posts

October 03 2013 23:50 GMT

#903

Yes, I suppose if the game were to change dramatically then optimal strategies would tend to change as well.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

October 03 2013 23:53 GMT

#904

On October 04 2013 08:50 Scip wrote:
Yes, I suppose if the game were to change dramatically then optimal strategies would tend to change as well.

its not exactly dramatic shift to have a 4 protect 1 strategy on teams. CLG would benefit from that strategy. for example. You don't have to homogenize your style based on whats popular at the time. UNless the game is balanced incredibly poorly multiple styles can work with and against eachother effectively within the same period of time. as long as the team is practiced and effective at it.

Slusher

United States19143 Posts

October 03 2013 23:56 GMT

#905

Except if you want to run 4 protect 1 in the current game you farm up your super tank in the top lane because they get enough more gold than the jungle to do the job significantly better.

it would take more than an Assassin nerf to make this untrue.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

October 03 2013 23:59 GMT

#906

On October 04 2013 08:56 Slusher wrote:
Except if you want to run 4 protect 1 in the current game you farm up your super tank in the top lane because they get enough more gold than the jungle to do the job significantly better.

it would take more than an Assassin nerf to make this untrue.

There is actually no point in discussion roles with you, since you don't actually deal with anything other than things exactly as they are done. you don't have the experience or foresight to see things differently. I request you stay out of these discussions as they are clearly not a field in which you have experience.

Slusher

United States19143 Posts

October 04 2013 00:03 GMT

#907

I never failed to provide my reasoning, you failed to address it.

the onus is on you to be specific since you are the one treading new ground.

Alaric

France45622 Posts

October 04 2013 00:03 GMT

#908

I had sorcs/abyssal/Zhonya's/GA on Diana and I 1v1'd Vayne with BotRK/PD/BT/zerkers without burning zhonya's nor GA and I lost barely half of my health.
Wtf she does so much damage in the midgame while building so little AP. o_o

She empties her mana pool surprisingly fast if you farm and poke considering her mana costs tho.

remedium

United States939 Posts

October 04 2013 00:07 GMT

#909

On October 04 2013 08:33 Scip wrote:

Show nested quote +

And a team should have support as their 3rd position if their support player is the best.
In short, no.
There is too much efficiency in farming jungle creeps, roaming and warding with 1 champion instead of dividing the duties around, because all of those things require the champion to be out of a lane. Roaming and warding distracts from accumulating gold, therefore the champion who does this usually gets 4th position.

In some circumstances, given favourable (or strangely unfavourable) picks, you can end up with having a jungler in 3rd position, maybe when your solo laner has strong teamfight abilities that you wish to utilize shortly after hitting lvl6 or when your solo laner is unable to lane against his enemy due to the matchup.

I don't see why you would prioritize the farm of a jungler over a middle laner, 2nd position jungler is just silly.

When every player on a team is of relative skill it doesn't make sense, but if your jungler is Meteos and your mid is Hai, it makes sense. By way of example, a mid on the level of xPeke/Faker/Alex, etc...would take priority over Meteos if they were on the same team.

I was unclear. I'm not suggesting that the jungler and mid laner (for example) strictly swap farm amounts. I'm advocating a more even distribution where the jungler has farm comparable to the solo lanes, if the jungler is a clearly better player.

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

October 04 2013 00:08 GMT

#910

Lots of teams have mid as the #1 position. People need to stop pretending its only Froggen. Just off the top of my head: Bjergson, Peke, Hai, Mancloud, and Regi. That is on top of the variety of teams that shuffle 1/2 on the fly fairly often like SKTT1, KTB, OMG, Fnatic, etc.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

October 04 2013 00:11 GMT

#911

On October 04 2013 09:08 cLutZ wrote:
Lots of teams have mid as the #1 position. People need to stop pretending its only Froggen. Just off the top of my head: Bjergson, Peke, Hai, Mancloud, and Regi. That is on top of the variety of teams that shuffle 1/2 on the fly fairly often like SKTT1, KTB, OMG, Fnatic, etc.

I don't think people say its ONLY froggen. but rather that froggen is BEST at it of all the positions he can play. so he's often brought up because he's a specialist in that field.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

October 04 2013 00:13 GMT

#912

Having your mid as your star player does not make your mid your 1st position.

About half those fit the former rather than the latter. Wildturtle is definitely the 1st position for TSM, for example.

Same for T1. Faker is the star for that team, but he's definitely not their 1st position.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

October 04 2013 00:18 GMT

#913

On October 04 2013 09:13 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

^ this.

1 position is based off farm priority rather than carry potential.

If you donate most of your team funds to a single player, that player is the 1 positions. Froggen often takes the most farm on his team sometimes by drastic amount, and that makes him the 1 position.

Faker can win more games than piglet, but they still give piglet the most amount of money.

1-5 position are based on the strategy used in a given game. rather than the skill ranking of players overall on a team.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

October 04 2013 00:20 GMT

#914

The classic example is if you have a stand-off mid, but there's room for one person on the team to go clean a pushed wave in the sidelane, which player goes to get that farm?

The vast majority of those teams listed still send their AD carry to get the farm barring other circumstances (champs with TP, Shen, vastly faster wave clear, etc.).

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

October 04 2013 00:22 GMT

#915

On October 04 2013 09:20 TheYango wrote:
The classic example is if you have a stand-off mid, but there's room for one person on the team to go clean a pushed wave in the sidelane, which player goes to get that farm?

The vast majority of those teams listed still send their AD carry to get the farm.

This and the "who gets the camps in the mid-late game" decision often decide positional farm roles. Some teams send their jungler to get the excess camp farm (Like C9) sacrificing farm for the bot lane mid and top for the sake of the jungler, raising his famr priority from 4 to 2 or 3 depending on their strategy. (rarely 2 though)

while others send their mid lane (like EG) to farm these camps. securing Froggen as a the 1 position. Most send their ADC putting them at the 1 spot.

Most korean teams tend to send 1-3 positions based on how close to their next item they are though. in which case you have to look at what yango said to figure out intended farm priority. since some games like faker leblanc skew the actual gold due to the performance of individual players.

koreasilver

9109 Posts

October 04 2013 00:29 GMT

#916

Even in the case the enemy team is extremely stacked with magic damage (top, mid, jungle all ap champs) I'm pretty sure it would favour your team the most to just straight rush aegis without upgrading your machete or leaving it at spirit stone/madreds. Going madreds/cowl just doesn't make any real sense to me even if the enemy team is stacked with magic damage because even after the nerf aegis is still strong enough to be a priority item where mr is needed.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

October 04 2013 00:30 GMT

#917

That's the thing. Most T1 games do end up with Faker the most farmed, but that's almost never because he spent more time than Piglet farming, but because he's killing everyone. Piglet is still 1st position in that case because the team committed the resources such that he could spend the most time farming.

This is likewise with Froggen--historically he has been the one on EG to spend the most time farming.