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On October 23 2013 07:34 TheYango wrote:
Teut and I have had this fundamental disagreement for a long time where he feels that at the highest possible level the way solo queue is picked and played should highly resemble tournament play, where I think in the long run this shouldn't be the case once competitive play develops far enough. Again, this is hard to have a real discussion about because of how hard solo queue bandwagons on pro play regardless so it's hard to separate out the various factors.
Personally, I think 5 individual players picking 5 strong heroes individually should look fundamentally different than a pro team picking a coherent teamcomp, but for various reasons, this is not the case right now.
thing is from my experience at least 2-3 people in a solo q game will pick for a team comp as long as it fits their champ pool. Especially if you do AoE or poke comp. In actual game play solo q is a lot different from team play. But in team play people still pick 5 strong champs, and solo q imitates those champ pickst. The coordination in team play comps is a little higher again but not too hugely so because people often just pick things that work really well in lane and then pick the team around them (zed pre nerfs, jayce pre nerfs everyone picked poke comps etc).
I mean how long has pro play been picking j4/lee sin all the time randomly just like solo queue. sure there are exceptions but often they are just blanket picked because of their strong ganks. Similarly people rarely pick weak laners for the purpose of a comp and generally they pick strong champs that work well together instead of an uber specialized comp with niche champs.
i just looked at the worlds finals and semi finals picks and aside from a few target bans and a couple of slightly surprise picks the comps are nothing that I haven't seen many times before in solo q and you'll also notice they pick more of less the same comps every game.
maybe when the game evolves and balance patches slow down people will get better at picking comps in team play that arent just FoTM based. However right now from team play what I see is very little to do with comps and a lot to do with superior strategy and coordination in game.
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On October 23 2013 17:17 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 13:54 Gahlo wrote:On October 23 2013 03:53 Slayer91 wrote:
with regards to fiora the reason she isn't played is probably because she is a generic assassin and she doesn't have an escape so everyone just plays zed instead
fioras W is such a pointless spell mid/lategame too i think they need to add something to it (sometimes decent against fed ads but you still get raped by cc and you never get to 1v1 them so who cares) What I hate about Riposte is that when you parry an attack with an on-hit(aka bear stance stun), it still goes through. Changing things like that would be a MASSIVE QoL improvement on her. Same is true with Jax's dodge and Pantheon's block (Xin's TTS and Nasus' Siphoning Strike actually deal damage through Counterstrike, Xin jungle real terror a few months back. ><).
That used to be true. Back when Nasus' Q was magic damage. I don't think it is anymore. I should know this since I've played the matchup but my memory is not that great and I'm not that attentive. The wiki is a bit confused too.
Jax's page says Nasus Q goes through
Nasus' page says Nasus Q gets blocked
As a general rule I think all straight up spells like Olaf E and Irelia's E go through
All on hit spells get blocked
>Ez Q and GP Q
On hit modifiers that do magic damage go through
>Sona's work. Poppy's should work.
>I don't think Kayle's or Teemos go through since they work on every attack
On hit modifiers that do physical damage get blocked
>Nasus'
>Rengar's for sure do not go through.
No effects get blocked. Voli Flip, Xin Knockup, Udyr Stun all still go through but the damage can get blocked.
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YIL carry Vi is broken as fk
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I also feel that the FoTm-pool we see in tournaments, is often among the most picked/banned in solo queue (at least on EUW). However mixing them together to fit a real potent team composition is something that maybe happens in 60-70% of the solo games i play. I had a game some time ago, where we had 4 picks for a strong hard-engagement team composition with loads of crowd control, but our mid-laner took Nidalee and that awkward pick made it so when we got behind, we couldn't really do anything, and Nidalee for sure couldn't do anything, because she wanted to poke and we wanted to engage.
However i do feel that your point Yango, should be what's relevant and that everyone should distinguish between solo queue and competitive play, but giving the current ban/pick-phase i don't see this happening for a very long time.
edit: The only real difference between solo queue and tournament level is the heavy emphasis on ego-picks
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as someone that basically mains nasus in plat now i can tell you that siphon strike goes through counterstrike
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but have you figured out whether to build spirit visage or glacial upgrade against jax yet?
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On October 23 2013 17:53 Slayer91 wrote:
but have you figured out whether to build spirit visage or glacial upgrade against jax yet?
Locket. You're welcome.
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On October 23 2013 17:51 FinestHour wrote:
as someone that basically mains nasus in plat now i can tell you that siphon strike goes through counterstrike
I guess the wiki means the autoattack portion just gets blocked. Ok no conflict.
Siphoning strike is probably one of the outliers. If anyone has the time I'd like to test out Jax's Counterstrike with every champion this weekend.
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no i build infinity edge on nasus for the big damage as was mathematically calculated to be superior build by some people on here
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Season 4 Support Itemization Changes - A Humble Proposal
Warning: wall of text follows.
+ Show Spoiler +11 new items, each of type "Relic". The aim is to allow options for support itemization with cheap items that aren't interesting for other roles because to get their full power you need 4-6 of them in your inventory (and other roles would prefer more powerful items in those slots). It is possible that junglers might still like these items too much, in which case some balancing would need to be done, it is also possible that stacking e.g. 6x the same AP item would give a strong power spike to AP Mid champions, this can be addressed by making the stat bonuses unique if necessary.
Note that I purposely did not include any GP10 items in this because I think they are a terrible crutch. Instead, if these items turn out to be too expensive for supports to buy the correct choice would be to nerf some stats and make them even cheaper than they already are.
In all likelihood these items would be insanely overpowered and would require extensive testing and tweaking to properly balance but they provide a starting point to a possible path for support itemization in the future. Probably all the numbers need a lot of tweaking and some of the effects might be straight impossible to balance for the game as it is in which case they can easily be altered to something more reasonable.
* Tome of Ascendent Power - Relic
Price: 1000G (Amplifying Tome + Faerie Charm + 385G)
+15 + (Relics x 5) Ability Power
+5 + (Relics x 1) Mana Regen per 5 seconds
If you have 4+ Relics grants Unique Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Aura: Nearby allied champions gain +20 Ability Power.
* Netherfury Staff - Relic
Price: 1500G (Hextech Revolver + 300G)
+35 + (Relics x 5) Ability Power
+10 + (Relics x 2)% Spell Vamp
If you have 4+ Relics grants Unique Passive: +20% Cooldown Reduction.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Active: Mark target champion for 3 seconds. On enemy cast: target takes 15% extra magic damage. On ally cast: target gains 15% increased healing from all sources. (60 second cooldown).
* Thundertreads - Relic
Price: 900G (Boots of Speed + 575G)
Unique Passive - Enhanced Movement: +45 Movement Speed.
If you have 3+ Relics grants Unique Passive - Enhanced Movement: +60 Movement Speed instead.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Aura: nearby allied champions gain + 10% movement speed.
* Duskstriders - Relic
Price: 1200G (Boots of Speed + 875G)
Unique Passive - Enhanced Movement: +45 Movement Speed.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Active: Your champion goes invisible for 1.5 seconds and gains +40% movement speed during this time. (180 second cooldown, taking damage from champion basic attacks reduces the cooldown by 5 seconds).
* Medallion of Conviction - Relic
Price: 1600G (Ruby Crystal + Null-Magic Mantle + 625G)
+16 + (Relics x 2) Magic Resist
+180 + (Relics x 20) Health
If you have 4+ Relics grants Unique Aura - Legion: Grants nearby allies +20 Magic Resist and +10 Health Regen per 5 seconds.
If you have 6+ Relics grants Unique Passive - Tenacity: Reduces the duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, binds, and immobilizes by 35%.
* Wall of Pain - Relic
Price: 1400G (Cloth Armor + Null-Magic Mantle + Ruby Crystal + 225G)
+16 + (Relics x 2) Magic Resist
+16 + (Relics x 2) Armor
+200 + (Relics x 10) Health
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Active: For the next 2 seconds you absorb 80% of the damage dealt to target allied champion. This effect ends if you die. (120 second cooldown).
* Ancient Sightstone
Price: 1000G (Ruby Crystal + 525G)
+180 Health
If you have 2+ Relics gains the ability to store up to 5 Sight Wards when bought from the shop.
If you have 3+ Relics Sight Wards bought from the shop cost 10G less.
If you have 5+ Relics creates 1 free charge (Sight Ward) every 120 seconds.
* Ancient Visionstone
Price: 1100G (Ruby Crystal + 625G)
+180 Health
If you have 2+ Relics gains the ability to store up to 5 Vision Wards when bought from the shop.
If you have 4+ Relics Vision Wards bought from the shop cost 15G less.
* Vial of Prophecy
Price: 1100G (Ruby Crystal + 625G)
+180 Health
If you have 3+ Relics gains the ability to store up to 2 Oracle's Elixir when bought from the shop.
If you have 6+ Relics Oracle's Elixir lasts 1 additional minute.
* Horn of Plenty
Price: 1200G (Faerie Charm + Regeneration Bead + Sapphire Crystal + 440G)
+5 + (Relics x 2) Health Regen per 5 seconds
+5 + (Relics x 2) Mana Regen per 5 seconds
+300 + (Relics x 30) Mana
If you have 2+ Relics grants Unique Aura - Mana Warp: Grants nearby allied champions +5 Mana Rengen per 5 seconds.
If you have 3+ Relics grants Unique Passive - Mana Font: Increases Mana Regen by 1% per 1% of missing Mana.
* Deck of Tricks
Price: 1900G (Null-Magic Mantle + Blasting Wand + 640G)
+50 Ability Power
+25 Magic Resist
Unique Active: Activating the item has a variety of effects. Which effects are possible depends on the number of Relics that you have. When an effect is used the next effect to happen is the next one on the list and once the end of the list is reached the first effect will be used for the next activation. (20 second cooldown).
Effects:
1 Relic - Heal target allied champion for 40 health.
2 Relics - Mark target enemy champion for 4 seconds. Basic attacks against the marked champion grant 20 movement speed for 2 seconds.
3 Relics - Restore 80 health and 40 mana over 10 seconds.
4 Relics - Place a ghost ward (grants vision, lasts for 60 seconds).
5 Relics - Grants 20% increased attack speed to nearby allies for 5 seconds.
6 Relics - Silences target enemy champion for 0.5 seconds.
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On October 23 2013 18:39 Goragoth wrote:Season 4 Support Itemization Changes - A Humble ProposalWarning: wall of text follows.+ Show Spoiler +11 new items, each of type "Relic". The aim is to allow options for support itemization with cheap items that aren't interesting for other roles because to get their full power you need 4-6 of them in your inventory (and other roles would prefer more powerful items in those slots). It is possible that junglers might still like these items too much, in which case some balancing would need to be done, it is also possible that stacking e.g. 6x the same AP item would give a strong power spike to AP Mid champions, this can be addressed by making the stat bonuses unique if necessary.
Note that I purposely did not include any GP10 items in this because I think they are a terrible crutch. Instead, if these items turn out to be too expensive for supports to buy the correct choice would be to nerf some stats and make them even cheaper than they already are.
In all likelihood these items would be insanely overpowered and would require extensive testing and tweaking to properly balance but they provide a starting point to a possible path for support itemization in the future. Probably all the numbers need a lot of tweaking and some of the effects might be straight impossible to balance for the game as it is in which case they can easily be altered to something more reasonable.
* Tome of Ascendent Power - Relic
Price: 1000G (Amplifying Tome + Faerie Charm + 385G)
+15 + (Relics x 5) Ability Power
+5 + (Relics x 1) Mana Regen per 5 seconds
If you have 4+ Relics grants Unique Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Aura: Nearby allied champions gain +20 Ability Power.
* Netherfury Staff - Relic
Price: 1500G (Hextech Revolver + 300G)
+35 + (Relics x 5) Ability Power
+10 + (Relics x 2)% Spell Vamp
If you have 4+ Relics grants Unique Passive: +20% Cooldown Reduction.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Active: Mark target champion for 3 seconds. On enemy cast: target takes 15% extra magic damage. On ally cast: target gains 15% increased healing from all sources. (60 second cooldown).
* Thundertreads - Relic
Price: 900G (Boots of Speed + 575G)
Unique Passive - Enhanced Movement: +45 Movement Speed.
If you have 3+ Relics grants Unique Passive - Enhanced Movement: +60 Movement Speed instead.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Aura: nearby allied champions gain + 10% movement speed.
* Duskstriders - Relic
Price: 1200G (Boots of Speed + 875G)
Unique Passive - Enhanced Movement: +45 Movement Speed.
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Active: Your champion goes invisible for 1.5 seconds and gains +40% movement speed during this time. (180 second cooldown, taking damage from champion basic attacks reduces the cooldown by 5 seconds).
* Medallion of Conviction - Relic
Price: 1600G (Ruby Crystal + Null-Magic Mantle + 625G)
+16 + (Relics x 2) Magic Resist
+180 + (Relics x 20) Health
If you have 4+ Relics grants Unique Aura - Legion: Grants nearby allies +20 Magic Resist and +10 Health Regen per 5 seconds.
If you have 6+ Relics grants Unique Passive - Tenacity: Reduces the duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, binds, and immobilizes by 35%.
* Wall of Pain - Relic
Price: 1400G (Cloth Armor + Null-Magic Mantle + Ruby Crystal + 225G)
+16 + (Relics x 2) Magic Resist
+16 + (Relics x 2) Armor
+200 + (Relics x 10) Health
If you have 6 Relics grants Unique Active: For the next 2 seconds you absorb 80% of the damage dealt to target allied champion. This effect ends if you die. (120 second cooldown).
* Ancient Sightstone
Price: 1000G (Ruby Crystal + 525G)
+180 Health
If you have 2+ Relics gains the ability to store up to 5 Sight Wards when bought from the shop.
If you have 3+ Relics Sight Wards bought from the shop cost 10G less.
If you have 5+ Relics creates 1 free charge (Sight Ward) every 120 seconds.
* Ancient Visionstone
Price: 1100G (Ruby Crystal + 625G)
+180 Health
If you have 2+ Relics gains the ability to store up to 5 Vision Wards when bought from the shop.
If you have 4+ Relics Vision Wards bought from the shop cost 15G less.
* Vial of Prophecy
Price: 1100G (Ruby Crystal + 625G)
+180 Health
If you have 3+ Relics gains the ability to store up to 2 Oracle's Elixir when bought from the shop.
If you have 6+ Relics Oracle's Elixir lasts 1 additional minute.
* Horn of Plenty
Price: 1200G (Faerie Charm + Regeneration Bead + Sapphire Crystal + 440G)
+5 + (Relics x 2) Health Regen per 5 seconds
+5 + (Relics x 2) Mana Regen per 5 seconds
+300 + (Relics x 30) Mana
If you have 2+ Relics grants Unique Aura - Mana Warp: Grants nearby allied champions +5 Mana Rengen per 5 seconds.
If you have 3+ Relics grants Unique Passive - Mana Font: Increases Mana Regen by 1% per 1% of missing Mana.
* Deck of Tricks
Price: 1900G (Null-Magic Mantle + Blasting Wand + 640G)
+50 Ability Power
+25 Magic Resist
Unique Active: Activating the item has a variety of effects. Which effects are possible depends on the number of Relics that you have. When an effect is used the next effect to happen is the next one on the list and once the end of the list is reached the first effect will be used for the next activation. (20 second cooldown).
Effects:
1 Relic - Heal target allied champion for 40 health.
2 Relics - Mark target enemy champion for 4 seconds. Basic attacks against the marked champion grant 20 movement speed for 2 seconds.
3 Relics - Restore 80 health and 40 mana over 10 seconds.
4 Relics - Place a ghost ward (grants vision, lasts for 60 seconds).
5 Relics - Grants 20% increased attack speed to nearby allies for 5 seconds.
6 Relics - Silences target enemy champion for 0.5 seconds.
What if you get a very stale 4 protects 1 meta with 4 supports and like a TP jungle twitch/Tryn that taxes all the lanes? (exaggeration 2 supports would also make the game more stale as often times the Jungler is barely leading on the support in terms of gold earned).
Also I feel the introduction of jungling items and the harder jungle was one of the worst things to happen to the game as it reduced the choices you could make as a jungler. It's less of a problem for supports in pro games since they already don't get items but at lower levels people do decide between aegis, shureleyas, deathcap, twin shadows, and etc...
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I laned against Fiora as Gangplank. And I thought Pantheon passive was bad.
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On October 23 2013 19:14 Osmoses wrote:
I laned against Fiora as Gangplank. And I thought Pantheon passive was bad.
Fiora needs a lot of help. I don't mean from your jungler, I mean from Riot.
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I dunno, in my opinion she's fine for soloq at least. I had more than one high gold game carried by a Fiora. She's a strong laner, and her lategame is not unlike a Riven.
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If she gets to late game, a squishy will die 100% guaranteed. Whether or not she cleans up afterwards is dependent team play and focus.
There's also the question of getting to it, but that's another story entirely.
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On October 23 2013 19:48 Lord Tolkien wrote:
If she gets to late game, a squishy will die 100% guaranteed. Whether or not she cleans up afterwards is dependent team play and focus.
There's also the question of getting to it, but that's another story entirely.
There are a lot of champs that can kill a squishy 100% guaranteed (every assassin ever for example), and then maybe clear a guy or two up, but with a 20x shorter time to get up to that point.
Which is why Fiora is bad: she does things other champs do too, but she needs way more gold for it than those other champs.
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On October 23 2013 18:28 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 17:51 FinestHour wrote:
as someone that basically mains nasus in plat now i can tell you that siphon strike goes through counterstrike
I guess the wiki means the autoattack portion just gets blocked. Ok no conflict. Siphoning strike is probably one of the outliers. If anyone has the time I'd like to test out Jax's Counterstrike with every champion this weekend.
I guess the reason why Nasus Q works is because it used to do magic damage. If it stopped working then that would be an unintended nerf when really they just wanted to make Nasus more consistent with newer champs by having him do physical damage on his Q, a physical looking ability.
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On October 23 2013 19:54 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 19:48 Lord Tolkien wrote:
If she gets to late game, a squishy will die 100% guaranteed. Whether or not she cleans up afterwards is dependent team play and focus.
There's also the question of getting to it, but that's another story entirely. There are a lot of champs that can kill a squishy 100% guaranteed (every assassin ever for example), and then maybe clear a guy or two up, but with a 20x shorter time to get up to that point. Which is why Fiora is bad: she does things other champs do too, but she needs way more gold for it than those other champs.
Disagree. Her required itemization is no worse than the aforementioned Riven.
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Riven can go Hydra and RQQQWR a squishy and it'll die till pretty late in the game (no I'm not forgetting autos no hydra's active in there), Fiora doesn't kill so fast and she's single target while her passive is the only non-AoE thing for Riven.
Also 1 bonus AD scaling shield, 'sup.
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A Fiora with LW+Brutalizer (which is only somewhat more than a Hydra) will kill a squishy just as well. Q+AA+Q+AA+R+AA+Ignite is more or less a guaranteed kill, especially if they're alone for the full R proc.
Not to say that Fiora's in a better spot than Riven. Riven's pretty ridic atm.
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EPT
