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On October 17 2013 04:06 cLutZ wrote:
I actually agree that Fizz doesn't need big nerfs. Fizz is a symptom, and the cure is bringing back Bulwark and the old locket.
Bulwark was easily one of the worst items they could have added to the game. MR shouldn't be a quick-fix, it should actually take some investment to get. It was THE one item junglers needed to rush, and that was really shitty when you would see it first buy on 99% of junglers every single game.
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On October 17 2013 04:21 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:06 cLutZ wrote:
I actually agree that Fizz doesn't need big nerfs. Fizz is a symptom, and the cure is bringing back Bulwark and the old locket. Bulwark was easily one of the worst items they could have added to the game. MR shouldn't be a quick-fix, it should actually take some investment to get. It was THE one item junglers needed to rush, and that was really shitty when you would see it first buy on 99% of junglers every single game.
Seeing an item being a must buy just means the other items suck. Now junglers just get Spirit and wards and oracles.
Basically vision is more cost effective at given income streams and total gold levels (power level) so Riot is thinking about how to nerf vision instead of fixing the fact that itemization is pretty much a farce
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On October 17 2013 04:26 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 17 2013 04:06 cLutZ wrote:
I actually agree that Fizz doesn't need big nerfs. Fizz is a symptom, and the cure is bringing back Bulwark and the old locket. Bulwark was easily one of the worst items they could have added to the game. MR shouldn't be a quick-fix, it should actually take some investment to get. It was THE one item junglers needed to rush, and that was really shitty when you would see it first buy on 99% of junglers every single game. Seeing an item being a must buy just means the other items suck. Now junglers just get Spirit and wards and oracles.Basically vision is more cost effective at given income streams and total gold levels (power level) so Riot is thinking about how to nerf vision instead of fixing the fact that itemization is pretty much a farce
Exactly. The issue wasn't that Bulwark was too strong (I mean it was good, no doubt) but rather that there was no item to compete with it. If there was another aura item or three in the same price/value range, it would have been a different story.
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United States23745 Posts
Only two new skins, that's a bummer. I'll buy Haunted Zyra sight unseen though. Maybe the old Nid and Blitz skins.
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Those kassadin changes.... Feel... Extreme? That's a lot of mana for a blink ult on a 4 second cd.
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On October 17 2013 04:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:26 xes wrote:On October 17 2013 04:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 17 2013 04:06 cLutZ wrote:
I actually agree that Fizz doesn't need big nerfs. Fizz is a symptom, and the cure is bringing back Bulwark and the old locket. Bulwark was easily one of the worst items they could have added to the game. MR shouldn't be a quick-fix, it should actually take some investment to get. It was THE one item junglers needed to rush, and that was really shitty when you would see it first buy on 99% of junglers every single game. Seeing an item being a must buy just means the other items suck. Now junglers just get Spirit and wards and oracles.Basically vision is more cost effective at given income streams and total gold levels (power level) so Riot is thinking about how to nerf vision instead of fixing the fact that itemization is pretty much a farce Exactly. The issue wasn't that Bulwark was too strong (I mean it was good, no doubt) but rather that there was no item to compete with it. If there was another aura item or three in the same price/value range, it would have been a different story.
Nice, then there'll be no reason to buy anything except one of a few giant stat sticks. Itemization, it's fun.
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On October 17 2013 04:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:16 Requizen wrote:On October 17 2013 04:11 kongoline wrote:
i wonder how long till khazix becomes fotm again Around the same time as Jayce imo. Both of them fell out of favor around the same time via various nerfs but are both still viable in the right hands. Probably the truest answer is, "whenever some pro, or group of pros uses him with lots of success." Like ahri and Fizz didn't really get any buffs, its just pros latched onto them and there for the masses did. I would also say, Generally the heros that people with lower skill can have success with, since everyone wants to win but not everyone can land skill shot combos and so on.
ahri got indirectly buffed when ryze got gutted with the massive range nerfs. It's true that what pros play tend to become popular, but pros don't pick up champs randomly for no reason either.
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On October 17 2013 04:31 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:28 Requizen wrote:On October 17 2013 04:26 xes wrote:On October 17 2013 04:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 17 2013 04:06 cLutZ wrote:
I actually agree that Fizz doesn't need big nerfs. Fizz is a symptom, and the cure is bringing back Bulwark and the old locket. Bulwark was easily one of the worst items they could have added to the game. MR shouldn't be a quick-fix, it should actually take some investment to get. It was THE one item junglers needed to rush, and that was really shitty when you would see it first buy on 99% of junglers every single game. Seeing an item being a must buy just means the other items suck. Now junglers just get Spirit and wards and oracles.Basically vision is more cost effective at given income streams and total gold levels (power level) so Riot is thinking about how to nerf vision instead of fixing the fact that itemization is pretty much a farce Exactly. The issue wasn't that Bulwark was too strong (I mean it was good, no doubt) but rather that there was no item to compete with it. If there was another aura item or three in the same price/value range, it would have been a different story. Nice, then there'll be no reason to buy anything except one of a few giant stat sticks. Itemization, it's fun.
Aside from BotRK, Randuin's, and Locket, every item is a "stat stick" of one sort or another. Riot seems to be rather vehemently against active items or non-traditional consumables, so that's the way it'll always be.
Not that I'm against it. I'd rather the gameplay comes from the characters, not the items, but that's just me.
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On October 17 2013 03:57 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 03:07 turdburgler wrote:On October 17 2013 01:08 onlywonderboy wrote:On October 17 2013 00:56 turdburgler wrote:
support centric items just address the symptom not the problem.
Is the problem lack of gold then? I'd prefer them to create new items to accommodate for the Support's lack of gold rather than giving them more gold to buy "real" items. supports as a predefined class of heroes is the problem. giving them OP utility then wank scaling means they will never value gold and be forced in to the ward-bitch role, its inevitable. if they reworked all the support champs then you would see more fluidity in comps and play styles, more freedom to play how you want and in the end i think it would make a better game. why does lane swapping or annie support (thats effective) have to be something you only see at the highest level? playing janna and derping about for 30 mins shielding your adc and warding stuff isnt a rewarding experience, no matter how powerful they make her or how strong items she can get. i will play support for my team if/when i feel it will help us win, because i want to win, but that doesnt change the fact that i think the game would be a lot more healthy and dynamic if we stopped having dedicated support champs. It isn't an issue of champ design at all. An inherent part of lol's game design is that funneling all money onto one champion is more effective than spreading the money to all champs, due to multiplicative scaling. For example, if you have a team consisting of just two generic champions, and you can double the AD of one champ and then double the AS of one champ, to maximize team dps you'd choose to double the AD and AS on the same champ, rather than different champs. With that said, you obviously can't simply funnel all the gold, since the gold is all over the map. But, there are 4 distinct gold streams available - top, mid, bot, jungle. One champ can fully take advantage of one of these streams. But there are five champs on a team, so one champ is necessarily missing out on a source of income. Now if you think of the necessary act of warding as a negative income source, and the idea that it's best to give all money to one champ, it becomes clear that the player making the least money should be the ward bitch. Giving supports better scaling isn't going to magically cause it to become optimal to split farm with their AD or with any other player on the team. It would cause them to become playable in solo lanes (top lane lulu!) but there's still going to be a ward bitch regardless. If supports had less utility the ward bitch would still be there, except he would be even worse at his role and even less fun to play.
that might be the case, but the nature of having a meta game around lol is that you dont have to play the 'strongest' strategy to win. feeding all money to ADC is in theory the strongest strat, but you can bully ADCs out of gold easily with a bruiser duo bot, or 2 mages. the point is there being a known 'best strat' doesnt mean other strats dont have their place, but i think dedicated support champs are limiting the number of strats.
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On October 17 2013 04:21 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:06 cLutZ wrote:
I actually agree that Fizz doesn't need big nerfs. Fizz is a symptom, and the cure is bringing back Bulwark and the old locket. Bulwark was easily one of the worst items they could have added to the game. MR shouldn't be a quick-fix, it should actually take some investment to get. It was THE one item junglers needed to rush, and that was really shitty when you would see it first buy on 99% of junglers every single game.
Well, there needs to be ways for the Jungler/Support to "Donate" defenses to the AP, and especially, the AD carry. Bulwark and Locket did that very well. If you dont want them to be able to do that, you have to rework the item system and let AD Carries get tanky while building enough damage to kill tanky characters like Jax, Shen, Singed, and Renekton in a decent amount of time. Otherwise, you get league of assassins like we got later in S3, and soon we will get a new league of assassins because those assassins are being nerfed.
Its fairly academic.
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United States23745 Posts
On October 17 2013 04:31 Cixah wrote:
Those kassadin changes.... Feel... Extreme? That's a lot of mana for a blink ult on a 4 second cd.
They didn't change the cost of the mana ramping up, they just lowered his damages. Unless I'm misreading something.
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On October 17 2013 04:37 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 17 2013 04:06 cLutZ wrote:
I actually agree that Fizz doesn't need big nerfs. Fizz is a symptom, and the cure is bringing back Bulwark and the old locket. Bulwark was easily one of the worst items they could have added to the game. MR shouldn't be a quick-fix, it should actually take some investment to get. It was THE one item junglers needed to rush, and that was really shitty when you would see it first buy on 99% of junglers every single game. Well, there needs to be ways for the Jungler/Support to "Donate" defenses to the AP, and especially, the AD carry. Bulwark and Locket did that very well. If you dont want them to be able to do that, you have to rework the item system and let AD Carries get tanky while building enough damage to kill tanky characters like Jax, Shen, Singed, and Renekton in a decent amount of time. Otherwise, you get league of assassins like we got later in S3, and soon we will get a new league of assassins because those assassins are being nerfed. Its fairly academic.
Current itemization seems to suggest that they dislike the idea of creating ADC-specific defensive items. Aside from Mercurial (which I've seen maybe 3 times since it was created), there is nothing the ADC can build that gives them defenses other than going for a straight defensive item like GA. Maw, I suppose, but that's probably never ever been built on an ADC.
I always found it odd. APs get the option to go "half defensive" and do things like Zhonya, Grail, or Abyssal - all of which still give AP and the defensive stat - while ADs are almost entirely full damage or nothing. This likely has to do with the inherent power of the ADC, but that's something entirely different.
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I've bitched about it from the start and I'll probably sound like the other thousand or so people that may hate it, but I cannot stand how easy they made it to get tanky in combination with how much free damage a lot of characters get in their kits. Look at Renekton: he builds sunfire and can dive just fine to the back line. Same thing with Zac, and j4, and Elise. All those characters have so much built in damage while getting to build tanky, it's just ridiculous to me.
While hitting items may not be the solution, something needs to be done. If they don't want to tone down how much damage some of those champs do, then at least hit itemization.
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K, got some time to respond as to why Fizz change doesn't matter.
How many times have we seen a Fizz get absolutely dumpstered in lane. Like I mean, DUMPSTERED. Like raggidy ass ho who's probably done one line of coke too many, and then feels obligated to have another shot of heroin to even it out, then finally finishes lichbane + zhonya's, and god fucking damnit, he turns into fucking superman. The only thing the W change to Fizz does is it makes it hard for him to go even in lane, if he does get the lvl 2 all-in (which lets be honest, it didn't work out half the time anyways). But why does this matter? He could come out of lane with 2 deaths and 40 cs behind, and he's technically coming out even. That's what is silly about fizz. This W change does nothing about this.
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On October 17 2013 04:11 Slayer91 wrote:its rikytan hes a czech guy, sometimes in lp sometimes not
Yeah I recalled he was Czech, Scip mentioned him sometimes, plus the accent sounded pretty close (but that's probably bullshit and just me not knowing many accents of Eastern Europe).
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Rikytan was actually an SC2 pro for esuba before going to league, fun little fact.
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On October 17 2013 04:38 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 04:31 Cixah wrote:
Those kassadin changes.... Feel... Extreme? That's a lot of mana for a blink ult on a 4 second cd. They didn't change the cost of the mana ramping up, they just lowered his damages. Unless I'm misreading something.
That might be right, It's just the name of the buff that he now gets for the +damage is the same one as the +mana cost, so I guess I assumed it was still on there.
Either way, I'm going to bed. I haven't slept since the inhouses last night and my mental thought process is really feeling it.
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United States23745 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWuOURzCEAALtmG.png:large)
