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[Patch 3.12] (j/k) Jinx General Discussion - Page 194

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turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
October 14 2013 00:13 GMT
#3861
jax
MoonBear
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
October 14 2013 00:13 GMT
#3862
On October 14 2013 09:03 Pantagruel wrote:
So I've been playing Shyvana top lane for a few months now with a fair amount of success. I've gotten from silver 4 to silver 1 around 85 points in. Lately though, I've been having a few more issues in lane. I usually stomp any and all melee opponents in lane with shyvana but more often I find myself going even which is not desirable as I don't bring too much to teamfights except for a nice hard initiate.

I'm looking to master a new champ in top lane. I've tried Vladimir for about a dozen games in normals to mediocre success. I don't hate him but I feel too squishy in teamfights specifically and I'm not that great at using the pool at the optimal time I feel like. I've also tried Irelia for about 4-5 games without too much success. I do very poorly early game because I frequently get harassed to death or if not, I get ganked with no escapes. I like her if the game goes on however.

I'm thinking I prefer a very tanky champ that does solid in lane, but can still be a threat in teamfights. I like Shyvana so much because she is a lane bully and is ungankable. There is no frills about her, she just dives in and kills people and is difficult to take down. I bought Renekton recently and think he might be a champ that fits my playstyle but I was wondering if anyone can recommend another champ for me to try out who is not hugely vulnerable in lane and plays like a tank.

Other than Renekton (which sounds perfect for you, being like Shyvana but a much bigger bully in lane) I recommend Zac, Jax and Shen. All of them can provide a strong damage threat (Jax being the scariest of them all) while they all also build defensively. They do however have some bad matchups but all of them also have jump/dash moves you can abuse.
ModeratorA dream. Do you have one that has cursed you like that? Or maybe... a wish?
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
October 14 2013 00:15 GMT
#3863
On October 14 2013 09:03 Pantagruel wrote:
So I've been playing Shyvana top lane for a few months now with a fair amount of success. I've gotten from silver 4 to silver 1 around 85 points in. Lately though, I've been having a few more issues in lane. I usually stomp any and all melee opponents in lane with shyvana but more often I find myself going even which is not desirable as I don't bring too much to teamfights except for a nice hard initiate.

I'm looking to master a new champ in top lane. I've tried Vladimir for about a dozen games in normals to mediocre success. I don't hate him but I feel too squishy in teamfights specifically and I'm not that great at using the pool at the optimal time I feel like. I've also tried Irelia for about 4-5 games without too much success. I do very poorly early game because I frequently get harassed to death or if not, I get ganked with no escapes. I like her if the game goes on however.

I'm thinking I prefer a very tanky champ that does solid in lane, but can still be a threat in teamfights. I like Shyvana so much because she is a lane bully and is ungankable. There is no frills about her, she just dives in and kills people and is difficult to take down. I bought Renekton recently and think he might be a champ that fits my playstyle but I was wondering if anyone can recommend another champ for me to try out who is not hugely vulnerable in lane and plays like a tank.


Durius
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-14 00:25:35
October 14 2013 00:21 GMT
#3864
On October 14 2013 07:02 Kinie wrote:
Speaking of ADCs, is an energy-based ADC viable or no?

Kennen as ADC was semi popular for a while.
On October 14 2013 07:10 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2013 07:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On October 14 2013 06:52 Requizen wrote:
On October 14 2013 06:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Vayne's problem is her Condemn being too strong.

I actually agree with this. Having a (admittedly situational) CC early on in lane is very strong. There's few ADCs who can CC chain alongside their support/jungler. Cait and Jinx have "skillshot" roots; Ashe, Trist, Urgot, and Varus need to wait until ults (well, slows sort of count I guess). Graves has Buckshot which is admittedly pretty strong, though.

But Condemn is a pretty strong CC if you can land it and even if you can't it's a rather good disengage tool on a relatively short CD.

Vayne's all in potential and burst is still significantly weaker than most other adcs like corki, ez, graves, etc. Even if you do land the condemn it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win the all in because vayne literally has no burst damage. It's also really difficult to follow up on a condemn pefectly while laning because you push them away from you meaning the CC might end up being useless. If you get so close to them that you can auto directly after then it means they severely misplayed and mispositioned.

I think most people who play ADC in any skill bracket would say vayne is not that strong atm when you can get counterpicked by corki or caitlyn who should both have an easy time, regardless of support. Imo corki is a hard counter to vayne because even after vayne gets botrk she cannot win against a corki or duel him 1 on 1.


i am fairly certain vayne with botrk can 1v1 any ADC in the game with the same amount of gold and exp unless you literally stand still and take every skillshot to the face.

Yes, but before BotRK timing, or even before level 6, she's very hard to get to that level, that's why her 2v1 is so good.
get sent in 2v1 lane, farm/push tower until you get enough levels to hold your own.
Go back to 2v2 lane, then school everyone with your newly bought BotRK.
On October 14 2013 07:26 nafta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2013 07:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On October 14 2013 07:16 zulu_nation8 wrote:
vayne vs. cait is hard but I don't see how you lose trades with ez and corki, trading means getting a few autos off vs. maybe tanking a skillshot.

Have you ever played as corki or against corki? I suggest you do before stating such ridiculous things about that matchup. Corki is a harder counter to vayne than caitlyn is. You do not want to be trading autos against a corki. And realize that all this should be played out in 2v2 scenarios where burst damage is much more meaningful than sustained damage.

Also vayne vs ezreal is probably one of the easier matchups for vayne, but it's more of a 50/50 matchup. If you trade 3 autos at a time the vayne will win, but ezreal has better poke and can play 2v2s better in general.

The real question is have you?Because ez is the easiest matchup in the game for vayne and corki is definitely manageable.

Vayne can dodge skinny skill shots, Corki's Q, and E, impossible to miss, unless you're Lee Sin.
On October 14 2013 07:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:
in a 1v1 vs TF corki, a vayne should win if corki gets condemned or outplays by dodging most skillshots, but will lose otherwise, but TF is more expensive than botrk. In lane a vayne will have a hard time vs cait, corki will do more damage but only up until a certain point, corki also can't harass like cait. Ez shouldn't be a hard lane for vayne at all. As long as you have your support push the lane early so that you don't get all-ined lv2, there's really no reason a vayne can't farm early on.

Corki + X support,
is far more likely to have pushing power than Vayne + Y support.
liftlift > tsm
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-14 00:29:32
October 14 2013 00:23 GMT
#3865
On October 14 2013 09:03 Pantagruel wrote:
So I've been playing Shyvana top lane for a few months now with a fair amount of success. I've gotten from silver 4 to silver 1 around 85 points in. Lately though, I've been having a few more issues in lane. I usually stomp any and all melee opponents in lane with shyvana but more often I find myself going even which is not desirable as I don't bring too much to teamfights except for a nice hard initiate.

I'm looking to master a new champ in top lane. I've tried Vladimir for about a dozen games in normals to mediocre success. I don't hate him but I feel too squishy in teamfights specifically and I'm not that great at using the pool at the optimal time I feel like. I've also tried Irelia for about 4-5 games without too much success. I do very poorly early game because I frequently get harassed to death or if not, I get ganked with no escapes. I like her if the game goes on however.

I'm thinking I prefer a very tanky champ that does solid in lane, but can still be a threat in teamfights. I like Shyvana so much because she is a lane bully and is ungankable. There is no frills about her, she just dives in and kills people and is difficult to take down. I bought Renekton recently and think he might be a champ that fits my playstyle but I was wondering if anyone can recommend another champ for me to try out who is not hugely vulnerable in lane and plays like a tank.


Durhius doesn't have any escapes though.

I play Jax pretty tanky. He's more single target than Shyv though so you might want to get say a iceborne if you're against Renekton or someone with physical damage and you want some AoE damage. Otherwise try to focus more on dueling than standing in the middle of teamfights. He's also not an initiator of 5v5 fights.

Other scary strong tanky tops include Garen. Not sure how he is post remake but you can disrespect people by dancing on their corpses so there's that. Garen's pretty tough to gank as well. The biggest problem is that Garen doesn't initiate. When he tries to, the enemy team just kites him for days.

Volibear is an iffy top. I usually lose with him because my enemies get out of my ult but with his ult up, and if the enemy stays to fight he can be decent. Also mediocre escapes.

Singed was probably better at escaping ganks back when he had cc reduction but he does the same thing as Shyvana later on by initiating and doing AoE damage. I don't really play singed though. Also he gets crushed harder than Vlad by those ranged champs you have trouble with.

No matter who you play, expect to lose quite a bit while you gain the hang of them.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Pantagruel
Profile Joined September 2011
United States1427 Posts
October 14 2013 00:24 GMT
#3866
I actually crush Renekton in lane as shyvana but in the general theme of the game I feel like he does better, have a single target stun at least and being almost as tanky as shyvana. Plus Renekton is more mobile in terms of dash mobility. I played jax very very early on in my league career, before I played ranked and I think I might try him again along with Renekton. I also thought of Darius because he is tanky but also can be very dangerous with his ultimate. Also he is great in sustained fights like shyvana. The only issue I feel like with him is that he would be easy to gank with no way to escape. Maybe you can point me to a good guide?

Anyhow, thanks for the input. I think I will practice some of these champs that fit my playstyle more then trying to focus on more variety like Vlad.
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-14 00:26:31
October 14 2013 00:25 GMT
#3867
On October 14 2013 09:03 Pantagruel wrote:
So I've been playing Shyvana top lane for a few months now with a fair amount of success. I've gotten from silver 4 to silver 1 around 85 points in. Lately though, I've been having a few more issues in lane. I usually stomp any and all melee opponents in lane with shyvana but more often I find myself going even which is not desirable as I don't bring too much to teamfights except for a nice hard initiate.

I'm looking to master a new champ in top lane. I've tried Vladimir for about a dozen games in normals to mediocre success. I don't hate him but I feel too squishy in teamfights specifically and I'm not that great at using the pool at the optimal time I feel like. I've also tried Irelia for about 4-5 games without too much success. I do very poorly early game because I frequently get harassed to death or if not, I get ganked with no escapes. I like her if the game goes on however.

I'm thinking I prefer a very tanky champ that does solid in lane, but can still be a threat in teamfights. I like Shyvana so much because she is a lane bully and is ungankable. There is no frills about her, she just dives in and kills people and is difficult to take down. I bought Renekton recently and think he might be a champ that fits my playstyle but I was wondering if anyone can recommend another champ for me to try out who is not hugely vulnerable in lane and plays like a tank.


i did nasus top from gold 2 to plat
that guy is freelo and i only own 2 rune pages worth, you only have like less then 5 bad matchups while convincingly crushing popular picks like shen trynd (unless u get rnged) and malphite and a lot more
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
dae
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1600 Posts
October 14 2013 00:25 GMT
#3868
On October 14 2013 08:54 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if you lasthit and tumble away which is what youre supposed to be doing at early levels you shouldnt be taking phos bombs


You cant dodge instant travel time spells. That just means the corki is bad.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
October 14 2013 00:29 GMT
#3869
On October 14 2013 09:25 dae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2013 08:54 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if you lasthit and tumble away which is what youre supposed to be doing at early levels you shouldnt be taking phos bombs


You cant dodge instant travel time spells. That just means the corki is bad.

Pretty much. Also, tumbling away after every last hit means you're resigning yourself to never harassing in lane, which means you're always going to be on the losing side of trades, every time.

Like someone mentioned earlier, there are small snippets of time where Vayne can retaliate, they're small, but they do happen. Her Level 3 timing can be pretty deadly with some support champions, she can also win a lot of opportunistic misplays on opponents part.
liftlift > tsm
smOOthMayDie
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States997 Posts
October 14 2013 00:54 GMT
#3870
Bought Lucian because Ghandi said 1000x yes. Heres to hoping I do well in my first ranked game!
twitch.tv/TKSaga twitter.com/TKSagaTV YT: Tinyurl.com/TKSaga
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
October 14 2013 01:00 GMT
#3871
Ghandi is a troll tho
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 14 2013 01:05 GMT
#3872
On October 14 2013 09:29 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2013 09:25 dae wrote:
On October 14 2013 08:54 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if you lasthit and tumble away which is what youre supposed to be doing at early levels you shouldnt be taking phos bombs


You cant dodge instant travel time spells. That just means the corki is bad.

Pretty much. Also, tumbling away after every last hit means you're resigning yourself to never harassing in lane, which means you're always going to be on the losing side of trades, every time.

Like someone mentioned earlier, there are small snippets of time where Vayne can retaliate, they're small, but they do happen. Her Level 3 timing can be pretty deadly with some support champions, she can also win a lot of opportunistic misplays on opponents part.


While true, I don't know how the discussion swung into a Vayne E-Peen contest, or the validity of Vayne's current power levels.

The question is: Who actually thinks Riot should make Vayne more Vayne-y. Short range, worse laning, more damage midgame, ridiculously higher damage lategame (like, to balance this out she is going to be able to 4-5 shot a fully built shen). I actually think that Riot is the last "person" to want that.
Freeeeeeedom
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 14 2013 01:11 GMT
#3873
On October 14 2013 10:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Ghandi is a troll tho

I can account for the realness.
It's your boy Guzma!
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
October 14 2013 01:16 GMT
#3874
On October 14 2013 09:03 Pantagruel wrote:
So I've been playing Shyvana top lane for a few months now with a fair amount of success. I've gotten from silver 4 to silver 1 around 85 points in. Lately though, I've been having a few more issues in lane. I usually stomp any and all melee opponents in lane with shyvana but more often I find myself going even which is not desirable as I don't bring too much to teamfights except for a nice hard initiate.

I'm looking to master a new champ in top lane. I've tried Vladimir for about a dozen games in normals to mediocre success. I don't hate him but I feel too squishy in teamfights specifically and I'm not that great at using the pool at the optimal time I feel like. I've also tried Irelia for about 4-5 games without too much success. I do very poorly early game because I frequently get harassed to death or if not, I get ganked with no escapes. I like her if the game goes on however.

I'm thinking I prefer a very tanky champ that does solid in lane, but can still be a threat in teamfights. I like Shyvana so much because she is a lane bully and is ungankable. There is no frills about her, she just dives in and kills people and is difficult to take down. I bought Renekton recently and think he might be a champ that fits my playstyle but I was wondering if anyone can recommend another champ for me to try out who is not hugely vulnerable in lane and plays like a tank.

shen, zac, malphite if u search for retard proof utility tank, kennen if ur ok with squishy but also pretty much retard proof top laner
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-14 01:21:38
October 14 2013 01:20 GMT
#3875
I don't know why you think the buffs would neccesarily have to represent a net improvement in her late game. It could be as simple as improving base armor, trading ad per level for base ad and reducing tumble cd a bit at all ranks. That'd pretty much do it, I bet, and if not, I'm sure there's some other set of changes that go in a direction besides the most retarded possible. It's pretty ridiculous to argue as if any feasible changes would have to be the worst set of changes possible.

I repeat that if she had been released with 525 instead of getting a last second range change before release - do not get the false impression it was thought out, they didn't do things that way back then* - and then balanced from there you guys would be flipping out at the thought of changing her into the current version.

*remember how they had no idea what Yorick ult was going to be until just before release?
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
LaM
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1321 Posts
October 14 2013 01:21 GMT
#3876
Pobelter says on stream that everybody was on board when he joined at first that he would be on 5-6 hours until winter and then 8-9 after that until the season started. But after a few days, some of the players decided they wanted everybody living in the house together and he had to leave. However, Pobe says he's pretty sure that's not the real reason and there's ulterior motives.

Also mentioned this is the 3rd time he's been betrayed by Curse and he is done with them, not a lot of time for him to join an amateur team so he might try out for Dignitas or try and get picked up by somebody as a sub.

---

I really hope Pobe finds a solid team either spring or summer split. I think he's done everything right, focusing and finishing his high school studies while maintaining a really high level of play. He's a really chill and talented player, and I'm looking forward to the day when he's done with high school and on a team that will show him some loyalty. I would personally love to see him on Dignitas, scarra and qt both love him and he would have great chemistry with those guys.
Anything is Possible
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 14 2013 01:25 GMT
#3877
I mean, you could take that approach and essentially make her into an earlygame monster that wins trades through brute force. But then you are just trading one part of the game being stupid for another part of the game. I mean, even if she wasn't "strong" she would have a lot less "counterplay".

Freeeeeeedom
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
October 14 2013 01:27 GMT
#3878
Probably end up replacing bischu sadly...
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
October 14 2013 01:43 GMT
#3879
Yeah, can't change vayne without creating an early game monster. Whatever.
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 14 2013 02:24 GMT
#3880
On October 14 2013 10:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
Yeah, can't change vayne without creating an early game monster. Whatever.


Way to take things out of context. I said you can't reduce Vayne's range without making her into more of a blunt force instrument.

Lets just say we took Vayne and made her Vayne-525. Vayne-525 sucks in lane, is probably still a strong duelist, and is slightly weaker in teamfights.

To make Vayne-525 as strong as Vayne, you need to buff something. Your suggestion basically means skill is less relevant to her earlygame. Mine makes her lategame more terrifying. What are the other options? Give her a ranged skillshot?
Freeeeeeedom
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Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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