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On October 14 2013 06:47 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 06:43 zulu_nation8 wrote:
vayne can trade but she has no push or waveclear ability so if you cant get to lv2 faster you'll have to farm under tower and take a lot of pressure. She really can't trade with most other adcs. It's typically bad to trade early on because usually the other adc will have better all in potential than you and if you're both at 50% it usually means the vayne has to be more defensive than the other way around. They also have better poke and more opportunities to get damage through the use of more burst/ranged poke.
trade does not equal all-in, whoever is in a better state at 50% depends on other factors such as whether your support has sustain or not.
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United States23745 Posts
On October 14 2013 06:21 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 06:20 onlywonderboy wrote:On October 14 2013 06:17 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2013 06:06 onlywonderboy wrote:
I've talked about this before. A lot of people are surprised when they find out Vayne has the same/less range than Corki/Ez/Graves, but they all have abilities that go father than their AA range, she does not. Vayne has the same as Corki/Ez and actually MORE than Graves. Yeah, that's why I said "same/less" lol She doesn't have less than any of them tho.... OWB #1 writer, strong grasp of English language.
I suck
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On October 14 2013 07:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 06:52 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2013 06:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Vayne's problem is her Condemn being too strong. I actually agree with this. Having a (admittedly situational) CC early on in lane is very strong. There's few ADCs who can CC chain alongside their support/jungler. Cait and Jinx have "skillshot" roots; Ashe, Trist, Urgot, and Varus need to wait until ults (well, slows sort of count I guess). Graves has Buckshot which is admittedly pretty strong, though. But Condemn is a pretty strong CC if you can land it and even if you can't it's a rather good disengage tool on a relatively short CD. Vayne's all in potential and burst is still significantly weaker than most other adcs like corki, ez, graves, etc. Even if you do land the condemn it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win the all in because vayne literally has no burst damage. It's also really difficult to follow up on a condemn pefectly while laning because you push them away from you meaning the CC might end up being useless. If you get so close to them that you can auto directly after then it means they severely misplayed and mispositioned. I think most people who play ADC in any skill bracket would say vayne is not that strong atm when you can get counterpicked by corki or caitlyn who should both have an easy time, regardless of support. Imo corki is a hard counter to vayne because even after vayne gets botrk she cannot win against a corki or duel him 1 on 1.
i am fairly certain vayne with botrk can 1v1 any ADC in the game with the same amount of gold and exp unless you literally stand still and take every skillshot to the face.
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On October 14 2013 07:07 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 06:47 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 14 2013 06:43 zulu_nation8 wrote:
vayne can trade but she has no push or waveclear ability so if you cant get to lv2 faster you'll have to farm under tower and take a lot of pressure. She really can't trade with most other adcs. It's typically bad to trade early on because usually the other adc will have better all in potential than you and if you're both at 50% it usually means the vayne has to be more defensive than the other way around. They also have better poke and more opportunities to get damage through the use of more burst/ranged poke. trade does not equal all-in, whoever is in a better state at 50% depends on other factors such as whether your support has sustain or not.
True, but again, it's risky because mathematically it'll usually work out better for the other adc. I mean, you can say such and such favorable situations, better player, etc., but I think it's better to assume even conditions. A vayne also has a much harder time looking for a trade. Caitlyn, ezreal, corki are all capable of punishing a trade attempt a lot harder than a vayne can. Properly played vayne should not win most early trades.
I'd say in general there should be almost no way a vayne should win an early game trade against a corki, caitlyn, graves, or varus unless the other player misplayed or you have a better support.
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is there any lane that corki leona isnt strong vs? played it a bit tonight and it felt disgustingly easy, but im wary about playing vs vayne lanes because i feel like it puts a timer on you winning ;/
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On October 14 2013 06:54 Slayer91 wrote:
condemn is an extremely strong spell when it comes to dueling and facing bruisers but pretty much useless when jumped on by cc and burst damage say from a tank+mage combo which is what makes her either ridiculously strong or really weak
Say you are Ashe, and a Jax jumps onto you.... you die, basically.
Vayne is very different, though, because her E is absolutely broken against a single target. Vayne practically has Janna's R on a 10-20 seconds cooldown that scales with her AD and can potentially stun. If a Jax jumps onto you and you are Vayne, it's hard to tell what will happen.
In teamfight I think it's very similar. If there is a single diver against a Vayne it's very hard to kill her, because she condemns you and all of a sudden you are 500 units away from her with your gapcloser already on cooldown. She also does a crapload of damage against a single target... So you need at least two divers against her... seems pretty OP to me.
Also I want to mention that Vayne has one of the best non-ultimate CCs for ADCs - it's a DISPLACEMENT and a STUN. Think about that for a second.... how strong that actually is... considering most ADCs either do not have CCs at all, or have some really weak ones.
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On October 14 2013 07:12 turdburgler wrote:
is there any lane that corki leona isnt strong vs? played it a bit tonight and it felt disgustingly easy, but im wary about playing vs vayne lanes because i feel like it puts a timer on you winning ;/
TRist/varus/cait with equal supports beat him very easily.Like thresh/zyra/lulu are really easy matchups.Also vayne if corki/leona but not that much vs other supports.
Vayne trades perfectly fine in lane.You just need to help jungler less so you get to lane first and push the wave so you don't get lvl 2 allined.
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On October 14 2013 07:10 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 07:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 14 2013 06:52 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2013 06:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Vayne's problem is her Condemn being too strong. I actually agree with this. Having a (admittedly situational) CC early on in lane is very strong. There's few ADCs who can CC chain alongside their support/jungler. Cait and Jinx have "skillshot" roots; Ashe, Trist, Urgot, and Varus need to wait until ults (well, slows sort of count I guess). Graves has Buckshot which is admittedly pretty strong, though. But Condemn is a pretty strong CC if you can land it and even if you can't it's a rather good disengage tool on a relatively short CD. Vayne's all in potential and burst is still significantly weaker than most other adcs like corki, ez, graves, etc. Even if you do land the condemn it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win the all in because vayne literally has no burst damage. It's also really difficult to follow up on a condemn pefectly while laning because you push them away from you meaning the CC might end up being useless. If you get so close to them that you can auto directly after then it means they severely misplayed and mispositioned. I think most people who play ADC in any skill bracket would say vayne is not that strong atm when you can get counterpicked by corki or caitlyn who should both have an easy time, regardless of support. Imo corki is a hard counter to vayne because even after vayne gets botrk she cannot win against a corki or duel him 1 on 1. i am fairly certain vayne with botrk can 1v1 any ADC in the game with the same amount of gold and exp unless you literally stand still and take every skillshot to the face.
Um, you'd have to dodge like every skillshot to beat a corki 1 on 1 with trinity force.
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On October 14 2013 07:12 turdburgler wrote:
is there any lane that corki leona isnt strong vs? played it a bit tonight and it felt disgustingly easy, but im wary about playing vs vayne lanes because i feel like it puts a timer on you winning ;/
Leona has a LOT of problems vs Janna and Lulu.
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vayne vs. cait is hard but I don't see how you lose trades with ez and corki, trading means getting a few autos off vs. maybe tanking a skillshot.
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On October 14 2013 07:14 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 07:10 zulu_nation8 wrote:On October 14 2013 07:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 14 2013 06:52 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2013 06:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Vayne's problem is her Condemn being too strong. I actually agree with this. Having a (admittedly situational) CC early on in lane is very strong. There's few ADCs who can CC chain alongside their support/jungler. Cait and Jinx have "skillshot" roots; Ashe, Trist, Urgot, and Varus need to wait until ults (well, slows sort of count I guess). Graves has Buckshot which is admittedly pretty strong, though. But Condemn is a pretty strong CC if you can land it and even if you can't it's a rather good disengage tool on a relatively short CD. Vayne's all in potential and burst is still significantly weaker than most other adcs like corki, ez, graves, etc. Even if you do land the condemn it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win the all in because vayne literally has no burst damage. It's also really difficult to follow up on a condemn pefectly while laning because you push them away from you meaning the CC might end up being useless. If you get so close to them that you can auto directly after then it means they severely misplayed and mispositioned. I think most people who play ADC in any skill bracket would say vayne is not that strong atm when you can get counterpicked by corki or caitlyn who should both have an easy time, regardless of support. Imo corki is a hard counter to vayne because even after vayne gets botrk she cannot win against a corki or duel him 1 on 1. i am fairly certain vayne with botrk can 1v1 any ADC in the game with the same amount of gold and exp unless you literally stand still and take every skillshot to the face. Um, you'd have to dodge like every skillshot to beat a corki 1 on 1 with trinity force.
TF is more expensive, and no, I highly doubt that.
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On October 14 2013 07:12 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 06:54 Slayer91 wrote:
condemn is an extremely strong spell when it comes to dueling and facing bruisers but pretty much useless when jumped on by cc and burst damage say from a tank+mage combo which is what makes her either ridiculously strong or really weak Say you are Ashe, and a Jax jumps onto you.... you die, basically. Vayne is very different, though, because her E is absolutely broken against a single target. Vayne practically has Janna's R on a 10-20 seconds cooldown that scales with her AD and can potentially stun. If a Jax jumps onto you and you are Vayne, it's hard to tell what will happen. In teamfight I think it's very similar. If there is a single diver against a Vayne it's very hard to kill her, because she condemns you and all of a sudden you are 500 units away from her with your gapcloser already on cooldown. She also does a crapload of damage against a single target... So you need at least two divers against her... seems pretty OP to me. Also I want to mention that Vayne has one of the best non-ultimate CCs for ADCs - it's a DISPLACEMENT and a STUN. Think about that for a second.... how strong that actually is... considering most ADCs either do not have CCs at all, or have some really weak ones.
You can't just say it's a stun when your opponent can position around it. I'd argue there are lots more adcs that are harder to kill at a certain point that a vayne. Corki, ezreal, caitlyn, tristana should all be unkillable and much harder to get to than a vayne. It's really no contest.
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On October 14 2013 07:16 zulu_nation8 wrote:
vayne vs. cait is hard but I don't see how you lose trades with ez and corki, trading means getting a few autos off vs. maybe tanking a skillshot.
Have you ever played as corki or against corki? I suggest you do before stating such ridiculous things about that matchup. Corki is a harder counter to vayne than caitlyn is. You do not want to be trading autos against a corki. And realize that all this should be played out in 2v2 scenarios where burst damage is much more meaningful than sustained damage.
Also vayne vs ezreal is probably one of the easier matchups for vayne, but it's more of a 50/50 matchup. If you trade 3 autos at a time the vayne will win, but ezreal has better poke and can play 2v2s better in general.
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On October 14 2013 07:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 07:16 zulu_nation8 wrote:
vayne vs. cait is hard but I don't see how you lose trades with ez and corki, trading means getting a few autos off vs. maybe tanking a skillshot. Have you ever played as corki or against corki? I suggest you do before stating such ridiculous things about that matchup. Corki is a harder counter to vayne than caitlyn is. You do not want to be trading autos against a corki. And realize that all this should be played out in 2v2 scenarios where burst damage is much more meaningful than sustained damage. Also vayne vs ezreal is probably one of the easier matchups for vayne, but it's more of a 50/50 matchup. If you trade 3 autos at a time the vayne will win, but ezreal has better poke and can play 2v2s better in general.
The real question is have you?Because ez is the easiest matchup in the game for vayne and corki is definitely manageable.
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Obviously you guys should have a grudge match.
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Why are people ignoring that Vayne is the worst ADC at farming when behind, is more likely to tank extra minion damage during trades, and has to play safe, even during trades because you needs tumble to trade effectively, but also need it to escape a countergank.
I don't see how you could contemplate reducing Vayne's range. If Vayne is too strong, it is because in the midgame with BOTRK she is too safe, and that is very similar to the old Jayce+Manamune problem, not a Vayne problem.
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On October 14 2013 07:12 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 06:54 Slayer91 wrote:
condemn is an extremely strong spell when it comes to dueling and facing bruisers but pretty much useless when jumped on by cc and burst damage say from a tank+mage combo which is what makes her either ridiculously strong or really weak Say you are Ashe, and a Jax jumps onto you.... you die, basically. Vayne is very different, though, because her E is absolutely broken against a single target. Vayne practically has Janna's R on a 10-20 seconds cooldown that scales with her AD and can potentially stun. If a Jax jumps onto you and you are Vayne, it's hard to tell what will happen. In teamfight I think it's very similar. If there is a single diver against a Vayne it's very hard to kill her, because she condemns you and all of a sudden you are 500 units away from her with your gapcloser already on cooldown. She also does a crapload of damage against a single target... So you need at least two divers against her... seems pretty OP to me. Also I want to mention that Vayne has one of the best non-ultimate CCs for ADCs - it's a DISPLACEMENT and a STUN. Think about that for a second.... how strong that actually is... considering most ADCs either do not have CCs at all, or have some really weak ones.
thats exactly what i said,( except stun isnt guaranteed. so you shouldn't count it really) You just compared ashe which is worst mobility adc with vayne. Compared to all the ones that are actually played, if they get stunned, they can use their escape mid animation of their stun usually, and the follow up is more difficult. Condemning away the guy who just cc'd you might be useless if the follow up is from someone else.
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in a 1v1 vs TF corki, a vayne should win if corki gets condemned or outplays by dodging most skillshots, but will lose otherwise, but TF is more expensive than botrk. In lane a vayne will have a hard time vs cait, corki will do more damage but only up until a certain point, corki also can't harass like cait. Ez shouldn't be a hard lane for vayne at all. As long as you have your support push the lane early so that you don't get all-ined lv2, there's really no reason a vayne can't farm early on.
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He disrespected your mother. I just heard it. 1v1 each other!
On October 14 2013 06:52 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 06:47 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Vayne's problem is her Condemn being too strong. I actually agree with this. Having a (admittedly situational) CC early on in lane is very strong. There's few ADCs who can CC chain alongside their support/jungler. Cait and Jinx have "skillshot" roots; Ashe, Trist, Urgot, and Varus need to wait until ults (well, slows sort of count I guess). Graves has Buckshot which is admittedly pretty strong, though. But Condemn is a pretty strong CC if you can land it and even if you can't it's a rather good disengage tool on a relatively short CD.
It's silly that skill even qualifies as a skillshot. I guess we can qualify Zed's point blank E as a skillshot too. Or Jax's E.
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EPT
