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[Patch 3.11] General Discussion - Page 58

Forum Index > LoL General
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Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
September 08 2013 14:59 GMT
#1141
Don't really get the issue. Blizzard basically built an empire on taking others ideas and improving the execution.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:04:09
September 08 2013 15:01 GMT
#1142
On September 08 2013 22:42 misirlou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 21:17 Sponkz wrote:
On September 08 2013 19:59 Zdrastochye wrote:
On September 08 2013 19:28 UniversalSnip wrote:
Riot's biggest season 3 item mistakes in my opinion, in no particular order:

1) frozen gauntlet. I fucking hate this item, once in a million games you see some silver leaguer buy it on a melee but 99% of the time it does nothing but help a kiting hero wreck melee. It's so obnoxious getting procced on by it, fuck this garbage, what is the item doing, exactly, to make the game better?

2) blade of the ruined king. it's not even particularly broken anymore after it hit the three million nerfs mark last week, but you can tell something is wrong because over the course of one game it usually outcompetes multiple of phantom dancer, bloodthirster, wriggles, wit's end, tiamat, until recently trinity, and more I'm not thinking of, as well as of course various garbage items like rageblade. Of course it's also another amazing kite item when they spent the first two seasons rolling back slows. I can't think of a stat this item doesn't give, I'm surprised it doesn't have protection from homarids.

What I really don't get about this is why they wouldn't just make the niche options better instead of making one crazy generalist item. You actually end up with less net item variety and less choices because this thing exists. I think it was intended to counter health stacking, but they just threw so much shit on it that role got completely subordinated to providing stat value and the total amount of health built varied exactly 0%. The ridiculous numbers on release show how poorly thought out it was, really. If I had to choose between granting my team access to strongest warmogs, strongest black cleaver and innervating locket vs release botrk, we'd be building botrk.

3) support items are terrible. It's a much better situation than last season thanks to sightstone, but still, all of them are upper midrange stuff, and support itemization is so tight due to the budget you can't incorporate random shit items like mana manipulator and expect it not to constrict people's buys. Is manipulator still going to be around in season four? It's an item only a scrub could love, it's so incredibly specific and has such unrealistic, unremarkable use cases.

The worst part is they're all so boring. Where's the cool stuff like a LoL-ized force staff? It would be so easy to make that play pattern fit into lol's design philosophy, instead we get zzzz three minute cooldown cleanses. The wildest effect this season was ohmwrecker and it's unbearably shitty. Who is pushing these ad items to triple their intended cost efficiency but maintains such a careful fucking eye on ohmwrecker?

Sightstone does good work but it's only a bandage that makes solo queue bearable. The whole vast ward issue has not been properly addressed.

4) wriggles, is there still anyone pretending this item is buyable? it's an obsolete design, only partially because of the awkwardness of the fact it presumes you need a vamp scepter to jungle but costs a million gold before it helps you out with that. I still like my idea of giving madreds an on hit life proc vs monsters and then having it upgrade into ghostblade. I guess the whole jungle item thing worked out okay, not as well as I thought it would, but even so can we please take the mana off the spirit stone path and have camps give it to you for killing them? it feels just awful building a spirit stone on a manaless hero even though 9/10 times it's right.


Gauntlet is fine, makes you have to hard engage over just brute forcing your way to victory, and it weakens bruisers who can leave top lane scary enough to 1v5 unless you can kite.

Blade is just a better solution than BT, so why not build it every game on adc? Yes it also works on other champs (see assassins) and is just an all around good item, but definitely not broken (as you state).

Support items should be terrible, and you should feel terrible for building them. 9 times out of 10 you should use the 475g in an oracles and a ward instead of a ruby crystal, and unless you're backing with 2k gold you should fill up on consumables first, items later. A 40 minute game with you having ruby sightstone, kindlegem, upgraded boots (with homeguard), and have had oracles on you since minute 20 is exactly what you want from a support. Vision > any single item for a support.

You complain about wriggles but what about Atma's? What about Ohmwrecker? (not even good on Kassadin) What about Executioner's Calling? Just needed one item to hate on so wriggles fit?




lol


You question him? just look at dota. No supports there building Meca,Pipe or Force Staff

Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 21:52 Sponkz wrote:
They should just create low-budget items, instead of having nearly every single "support" item build from either 1 gp10 or 3 low-income component (like ruby, cloth etc.). Then supports can be a ward-bitching mofo and a item-hungry mofo.


By "nearly every single" you mean the every one of the total 2 items that supports do build? shurelya and aegis/locket? I guess mikael and starks to a lesser extent, so all of 4?



Who said LoL should be like dota? Cus it kinda seems bias to compare the ways of supporting by saying "this is how you do it in dota, so why should it be like that in LoL".

What I'm actually proposing, is a total re-creation of every cost for items (aswell as adding dozens of new ones), so that it will allow some sort of expansion where supporting is more than just being "the ward-bitch with oracles". Makes the game far more valuable and could potentially change the "meta" (fk i hate that word).
hi
Haiq343
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2548 Posts
September 08 2013 15:01 GMT
#1143
On September 08 2013 23:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 23:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On September 08 2013 16:00 JonGalt wrote:
Dragon champion wooooooooo!

forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41356104#post41356104


Interesting...

Smite has a god called Ao Kuang - looks very similar, and is wind and weather powers and shit.

Mayhaps I have a new mid to learn?


It's almost like asiatic storm dragon mythology is a thing! Who knew.
I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination encircles the world. -Einstein
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 08 2013 15:03 GMT
#1144
Yeah I get so tired of these LoL vs. Dota comparisons.

They're different games and they're not trying to be the same game. Stop comparing them.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
September 08 2013 15:07 GMT
#1145
I wouldn't mind some of the support items like shurelias/mikael's being significantly cheaper. Don't think it'd change the scope of the game too much.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
September 08 2013 15:14 GMT
#1146
I just wanted to post it cause it's funny how anti-LoL Kennigit is, haha.
Smite, HoN, LoL all have a Wukong as well. gg
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:18:04
September 08 2013 15:17 GMT
#1147
On September 09 2013 00:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
I just wanted to post it cause it's funny how anti-LoL Kennigit is, haha.
Smite, HoN, LoL all have a Wukong as well. gg


And they're all copying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong

Who is copying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman

Who is probably copying monkeys as a general statement.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:22:03
September 08 2013 15:18 GMT
#1148
On September 08 2013 23:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 23:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On September 08 2013 16:00 JonGalt wrote:
Dragon champion wooooooooo!

forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41356104#post41356104


Interesting...

Smite has a god called Ao Kuang - looks very similar, and is wind and weather powers and shit.

Mayhaps I have a new mid to learn?

https://twitter.com/Kennigit/status/376637891532689408


League loves to rip off other characters. Corki = Gyrocopter? I have nooooo problems with this one.

On September 09 2013 00:01 Sponkz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 22:42 misirlou wrote:
On September 08 2013 21:17 Sponkz wrote:
On September 08 2013 19:59 Zdrastochye wrote:
On September 08 2013 19:28 UniversalSnip wrote:
Riot's biggest season 3 item mistakes in my opinion, in no particular order:

1) frozen gauntlet. I fucking hate this item, once in a million games you see some silver leaguer buy it on a melee but 99% of the time it does nothing but help a kiting hero wreck melee. It's so obnoxious getting procced on by it, fuck this garbage, what is the item doing, exactly, to make the game better?

2) blade of the ruined king. it's not even particularly broken anymore after it hit the three million nerfs mark last week, but you can tell something is wrong because over the course of one game it usually outcompetes multiple of phantom dancer, bloodthirster, wriggles, wit's end, tiamat, until recently trinity, and more I'm not thinking of, as well as of course various garbage items like rageblade. Of course it's also another amazing kite item when they spent the first two seasons rolling back slows. I can't think of a stat this item doesn't give, I'm surprised it doesn't have protection from homarids.

What I really don't get about this is why they wouldn't just make the niche options better instead of making one crazy generalist item. You actually end up with less net item variety and less choices because this thing exists. I think it was intended to counter health stacking, but they just threw so much shit on it that role got completely subordinated to providing stat value and the total amount of health built varied exactly 0%. The ridiculous numbers on release show how poorly thought out it was, really. If I had to choose between granting my team access to strongest warmogs, strongest black cleaver and innervating locket vs release botrk, we'd be building botrk.

3) support items are terrible. It's a much better situation than last season thanks to sightstone, but still, all of them are upper midrange stuff, and support itemization is so tight due to the budget you can't incorporate random shit items like mana manipulator and expect it not to constrict people's buys. Is manipulator still going to be around in season four? It's an item only a scrub could love, it's so incredibly specific and has such unrealistic, unremarkable use cases.

The worst part is they're all so boring. Where's the cool stuff like a LoL-ized force staff? It would be so easy to make that play pattern fit into lol's design philosophy, instead we get zzzz three minute cooldown cleanses. The wildest effect this season was ohmwrecker and it's unbearably shitty. Who is pushing these ad items to triple their intended cost efficiency but maintains such a careful fucking eye on ohmwrecker?

Sightstone does good work but it's only a bandage that makes solo queue bearable. The whole vast ward issue has not been properly addressed.

4) wriggles, is there still anyone pretending this item is buyable? it's an obsolete design, only partially because of the awkwardness of the fact it presumes you need a vamp scepter to jungle but costs a million gold before it helps you out with that. I still like my idea of giving madreds an on hit life proc vs monsters and then having it upgrade into ghostblade. I guess the whole jungle item thing worked out okay, not as well as I thought it would, but even so can we please take the mana off the spirit stone path and have camps give it to you for killing them? it feels just awful building a spirit stone on a manaless hero even though 9/10 times it's right.


Gauntlet is fine, makes you have to hard engage over just brute forcing your way to victory, and it weakens bruisers who can leave top lane scary enough to 1v5 unless you can kite.

Blade is just a better solution than BT, so why not build it every game on adc? Yes it also works on other champs (see assassins) and is just an all around good item, but definitely not broken (as you state).

Support items should be terrible, and you should feel terrible for building them. 9 times out of 10 you should use the 475g in an oracles and a ward instead of a ruby crystal, and unless you're backing with 2k gold you should fill up on consumables first, items later. A 40 minute game with you having ruby sightstone, kindlegem, upgraded boots (with homeguard), and have had oracles on you since minute 20 is exactly what you want from a support. Vision > any single item for a support.

You complain about wriggles but what about Atma's? What about Ohmwrecker? (not even good on Kassadin) What about Executioner's Calling? Just needed one item to hate on so wriggles fit?




lol


You question him? just look at dota. No supports there building Meca,Pipe or Force Staff

On September 08 2013 21:52 Sponkz wrote:
They should just create low-budget items, instead of having nearly every single "support" item build from either 1 gp10 or 3 low-income component (like ruby, cloth etc.). Then supports can be a ward-bitching mofo and a item-hungry mofo.


By "nearly every single" you mean the every one of the total 2 items that supports do build? shurelya and aegis/locket? I guess mikael and starks to a lesser extent, so all of 4?



Who said LoL should be like dota? Cus it kinda seems bias to compare the ways of supporting by saying "this is how you do it in dota, so why should it be like that in LoL".

What I'm actually proposing, is a total re-creation of every cost for items (aswell as adding dozens of new ones), so that it will allow some sort of expansion where supporting is more than just being "the ward-bitch with oracles". Makes the game far more valuable and could potentially change the "meta" (fk i hate that word).


Go ahead and envision highly cost efficient tiems for supports to buy and watch solo laners buying those items instead. If a make an item really good for really cheap, it'll be even stronger on solo laners.

Wanna change the meta, go make sharing experience completely crippling to both parties, so you have 3 solo laners and two junglers. It wouldn't make the game better, but it'd change the meta.
Hey! How you doin'?
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
September 08 2013 15:22 GMT
#1149
From what I can gather Gyrocopter only got released somewhere in 2010 and corki was towards the end of 2009. They both just copied the war3 unit and are absolutely nothing alike aside from that.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 08 2013 15:23 GMT
#1150
Because DotA was the original Gyrocopter manufacturer: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160128a&_requestid=3480949

I imagine somebody did that shit before Games Workshop.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12912 Posts
September 08 2013 15:24 GMT
#1151
On September 08 2013 23:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 16:00 JonGalt wrote:
Dragon champion wooooooooo!

forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41356104#post41356104


Interesting...

Smite has a god called Ao Kuang - looks very similar, and is wind and weather powers and shit.

Mayhaps I have a new mid to learn?

the chinese name is 東海龍王. basically the dragon king of the east sea (also the most powerful of the 4 sea dragons)
so it's not surprising that they have similar features.

To add more:
the chinese yi yan has 4 creatures that represent north east south west (as well as the seasons, 5 elements when counting China Emperor extra creatures that sits in middle, colour etc)
North - A creature with features of snake and turtle.
East - East Dragon King
South - Phoenix (but cannot resurrect, has 5 colours of feather and the flame on its body does not burn out)
West - White tiger

And another in the middle which is the Yellow Dragon (the Emperor)
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
September 08 2013 15:25 GMT
#1152
They wouldn't be highly cost efficient, they would have auras and actives to compensate. The idea, by decreasing the overall costs of stats, makes it so you can purchase items that spike differently than what is known right now (e.g hexdrinker -> maw would just be hexdrinker, it would give maw's auras, but abit less stats and for less gold than you'd give for maw normally).
hi
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
September 08 2013 15:28 GMT
#1153
On September 09 2013 00:25 Sponkz wrote:
They wouldn't be highly cost efficient, they would have auras and actives to compensate. The idea, by decreasing the overall costs of stats, makes it so you can purchase items that spike differently than what is known right now (e.g hexdrinker -> maw would just be hexdrinker, it would give maw's auras, but abit less stats and for less gold than you'd give for maw normally).

And then the jungler would just buy it...
SimulatedAnneal
Profile Joined March 2012
765 Posts
September 08 2013 15:29 GMT
#1154
Is someone actually claiming that ripping off Smite characters is a thing? They're all based on mythologies that are thousands of years old...
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:31:31
September 08 2013 15:30 GMT
#1155
On September 09 2013 00:25 Sponkz wrote:
They wouldn't be highly cost efficient, they would have auras and actives to compensate. The idea, by decreasing the overall costs of stats, makes it so you can purchase items that spike differently than what is known right now (e.g hexdrinker -> maw would just be hexdrinker, it would give maw's auras, but abit less stats and for less gold than you'd give for maw normally).


The problem you continually run into is that there's not a single item that a support ends up buying that is better than them putting that money into vision and denying the vision of the other team. If you have sight on exactly what the other team is doing, and they can't keep vision on you, unless you're talking about substantial auras there's no way they'd be better alternatives.

On September 09 2013 00:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2013 00:25 Sponkz wrote:
They wouldn't be highly cost efficient, they would have auras and actives to compensate. The idea, by decreasing the overall costs of stats, makes it so you can purchase items that spike differently than what is known right now (e.g hexdrinker -> maw would just be hexdrinker, it would give maw's auras, but abit less stats and for less gold than you'd give for maw normally).

And then the jungler would just buy it...


Precisely what I hinted at before.
Hey! How you doin'?
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:34:21
September 08 2013 15:31 GMT
#1156
On September 09 2013 00:18 Zdrastochye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2013 23:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
On September 08 2013 23:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On September 08 2013 16:00 JonGalt wrote:
Dragon champion wooooooooo!

forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41356104#post41356104


Interesting...

Smite has a god called Ao Kuang - looks very similar, and is wind and weather powers and shit.

Mayhaps I have a new mid to learn?

https://twitter.com/Kennigit/status/376637891532689408


League loves to rip off other characters. Corki = Gyrocopter? I have nooooo problems with this one.


Don't forget that Orianna came out while everyone was obsessed with Portal. My goodness, when portal came out GLaDOS voices and sinister test facilities experimenting on you became tropes overnight.

On September 09 2013 00:30 Zdrastochye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2013 00:25 Sponkz wrote:
They wouldn't be highly cost efficient, they would have auras and actives to compensate. The idea, by decreasing the overall costs of stats, makes it so you can purchase items that spike differently than what is known right now (e.g hexdrinker -> maw would just be hexdrinker, it would give maw's auras, but abit less stats and for less gold than you'd give for maw normally).


The problem you continually run into is that there's not a single item that a support ends up buying that is better than them putting that money into vision and denying the vision of the other team. If you have sight on exactly what the other team is doing, and they can't keep vision on you, unless you're talking about substantial auras there's no way they'd be better alternatives.


Obviously the solution is to remove wards from the game and give each support a vision ability instead. Since that's not enough vision we can finally have 5 clairvoyance meta!
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:32:36
September 08 2013 15:32 GMT
#1157
On September 09 2013 00:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2013 00:25 Sponkz wrote:
They wouldn't be highly cost efficient, they would have auras and actives to compensate. The idea, by decreasing the overall costs of stats, makes it so you can purchase items that spike differently than what is known right now (e.g hexdrinker -> maw would just be hexdrinker, it would give maw's auras, but abit less stats and for less gold than you'd give for maw normally).

And then the jungler would just buy it...


not a problem.

jungle = support #2
Carrilord has arrived.
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
September 08 2013 15:35 GMT
#1158
On September 09 2013 00:29 SimulatedAnneal wrote:
Is someone actually claiming that ripping off Smite characters is a thing? They're all based on mythologies that are thousands of years old...


I doubt it, isnt smite just literally taking god's names for their game? Like Zeus, Odin etc?

Kennigit is just super anti LoL/Riot
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:39:51
September 08 2013 15:38 GMT
#1159
I think the problem with support is not the fact that you slowly fall out of relevancy and that controlling vision is your main priority, but that the way you impact the game is boring. Clearing wards hoping you don't get 100-0'd is not that fun, and laning with an ad carry is quite boring until you finally fight in an all in situation. The only champions I "enjoy" supporting on are thresh and blitz because of their spells, but supporting at the base level is not a fun experience.

I think riot should just focus on designing champions in the future that have high impact skills with low scaling and are more fun to play. A high mobility support would be interesting.
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-08 15:40:28
September 08 2013 15:38 GMT
#1160
On September 09 2013 00:35 AsnSensation wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2013 00:29 SimulatedAnneal wrote:
Is someone actually claiming that ripping off Smite characters is a thing? They're all based on mythologies that are thousands of years old...


I doubt it, isnt smite just literally taking god's names for their game? Like Zeus, Odin etc?

Kennigit is just super anti LoL/Riot


Kennigit loves to drink his haterade.

So Asn how about iG, huh? They look pretty good this time around.

Edit: Nevermind they didn't get in, I fail at comprehension of brackets.
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