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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
A B-Team would allow for both though, but Riots LCS rules about 1 team per organization mean that The top organizations need to do stuff like EG-Alliance.
It's sort of funny, the same rule technically exists in LPL but at least three of the teams in the last split of LPL were organizations in part created from the B-teams of other LPL teams to circumvent this. PE was originally WE's B-team, LMQ was originally Royal's B-team, and YG was originally IG's B-team.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:30 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Sir, you are EU. Why do you know ninjaken and Quas? :O Fusilero, I am impressed. Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:28 Requizen wrote:
I can swear we just had this same conversation like Friday, I was busy on Friday, probably missed it.
Nothing to do at 2:00 AM but watch NA challenger lol.
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On October 01 2013 04:31 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:30 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Sir, you are EU. Why do you know ninjaken and Quas? :O Fusilero, I am impressed. On October 01 2013 04:28 Requizen wrote:
I can swear we just had this same conversation like Friday, I was busy on Friday, probably missed it. Nothing to do at 2:00 AM but watch NA challenger lol.
...mastursleep?
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:32 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:31 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 04:30 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Sir, you are EU. Why do you know ninjaken and Quas? :O Fusilero, I am impressed. On October 01 2013 04:28 Requizen wrote:
I can swear we just had this same conversation like Friday, I was busy on Friday, probably missed it. Nothing to do at 2:00 AM but watch NA challenger lol. ... mastursleep?
Sleep is for the weak.
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United States15536 Posts
On October 01 2013 03:40 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you  It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. reasonable isnt sitting back and waiting a year to comment, this is just talk on a public forum. reasonable is reevaluating your opinion based on new information. so if other people want to add what they know or think, then we can talk about that too. i dont understand how muting yourself in a casual conversation is reasonable. Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back. what pitchforks? no one here has said "what a shitbag! no second chances! they should sue! call the sponsors! super duper irony mode to call out people who havent read every side of the story and not even read what they actually say.
After reading that I'd say that gtrsrs is the most incompetent manager I've seen in quite some time.
This is the kind of need for self-censorship I was mocking and where the "pitchforks" were. Not exactly a representative sample in most cases, but suffice it to say that people were pretty quick to believe gtr was fucking up when he hadn't even said anything. Not that this is abnormal for TL, but we should remember who we're jumping on, particularly when they're a member of the community.
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On October 01 2013 04:34 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:40 turdburgler wrote:On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. reasonable isnt sitting back and waiting a year to comment, this is just talk on a public forum. reasonable is reevaluating your opinion based on new information. so if other people want to add what they know or think, then we can talk about that too. i dont understand how muting yourself in a casual conversation is reasonable. On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back. what pitchforks? no one here has said "what a shitbag! no second chances! they should sue! call the sponsors! super duper irony mode to call out people who havent read every side of the story and not even read what they actually say. Show nested quote +After reading that I'd say that gtrsrs is the most incompetent manager I've seen in quite some time. This is the kind of need for self-censorship I was mocking and where the "pitchforks" were. Not exactly a representative sample in most cases, but suffice it to say that people were pretty quick to believe gtr was fucking up when he hadn't even said anything. Not that this is abnormal for TL, but we should remember who we're jumping on, particularly when they're a member of the community.
Then you read the name of the poster and realize it was Shikyo, and then everything makes so much sense.
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People have information. They say said information is obviously not the whole truth but that does not invalidate the usefulness. Said information sparks a healthy discussion about the role of upper management in western esports and possible ways to improve the structure.
Please explain how any of this is unreasonable or irrational. Please explain how people are jumping the gun on a community member. While Vilerozes comments maybe have started the discussion, it is not the heart of the discussion nor is it the subject at all. It's moved on and any direct attacks against either party is the attackers own and not TL. So quick are we to berate the people we share counsel in
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On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS.
So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning.
There is one, he's called Jack.
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On October 01 2013 04:38 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. There is one, he's called Jack.
Neo is broke as a joke, come on man.
<3
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On October 01 2013 04:23 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:21 NeoIllusions wrote:
I just want to see teams be willing to explore other options. KR obviously does this best but holy shit NA is just an old boy's club at this point.
NA plz, shit needs to/has to change. Riot needs to hold more tournaments for challenger/diamond level 5's. or the big organizations need to hire a manager with control over the roster, and the desire to find talent. Without a method of finding talent there can be no change. Currently the only way new talent filters in is if a team joins LCS and fails and is cannibalized by others.
IMO do something with the ranked team ladder, somewhat like NLB style. Let every team who's made it into diamond ranked 5's sign up, and have as big of a bracket as necessary, because you have a whole split to decide(~15 weeks, Bo3, single elim, ro8 onwards bo5)
Have it be like first place be like 1k per person, and 100 per sub who played more than X matches. 2nd place be like 500/50, and 3rd/4th be 250/25, and then 5-8 100 for the top 5 players by playtime. 9-16 can get RP/skin prizes.
Compared to an LCS team, it isn't much, but it gives "talent" somewhere to showcase itself.
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On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning.
Not necessarily. As it stands now teams consist generally only of a starting roster and nothing else. Sure there might be "subs" but they tend to be in name only and called upon only when dire need arises. This doesn't have to be the case. Why not have say a 6/7/8/etc. man roster. Maybe some of those in the roster aren't quite as good but offer better media exposure. Maybe those can be the face of the team or even play in say lesser cups the team doesn't need to their full strength for.
There are obviously issues with that. It was just a quick thought I had as a way to go around the issue. I don't think it's the only possible way just that there must be avenues that we just aren't trying hard enough to find.
When hotshot stepped down he was in the perfect position to start such a movement. It's a pity he instead secluded himself even more than previously
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On October 01 2013 04:27 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:27 turdburgler wrote:
this is how na is with starcraft aswell though, and you call them out for it and you get temp banned ;p
so what can you say. NA does the same thing they do with every game. being good isnt a requirement to being popular, so why be good when you can be popular? very few players manage to do both, and they are the super stars. Well in Dota NA is definitely making an effort to be Good, the best even. with a bunch of teams fighting to get recognition each with their own star players, only a matter of time before those teams break down and the stars join together as has been done for almost a decade. But the stream culture and riots organizational rules are holding back NA a lot.
Hahahaha. Please be serious. NA DotA has so many problems. There is a reason NA is the weakest scene in DotA as well, and not to mention that it's just as much of an old boy's club that NA LoL scene is.
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we just need a big brother style TV show for the NA LCS. all the non heavily supported teams live there. and every week they play their matches and then the bottom teams are up for eviction. and since as we have seen they are literally unable to use a microwave, eviction = death.
super intense, everyone will want to improve.
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On October 01 2013 04:42 ketchup wrote:
Hahahaha. Please be serious. NA DotA has so many problems. There is a reason NA is the weakest scene in DotA as well, and not to mention that it's just as much of an old boy's club that NA LoL scene is.
Times they are a changing. And right now i'd put the top NA teams ahead of the top SEA teams and the majority of EU. NA dota is doing fairly well right now. and all the semi pro teams coming up have enough talent to form a couple decent teams.
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On October 01 2013 04:39 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. There is one, he's called Jack. Neo is broke as a joke, come on man. <3
Neo more broke than the FGC
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On October 01 2013 04:45 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Neo more broke than the FGC
Actually impossible. poor FGC.
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On October 01 2013 04:45 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:39 Requizen wrote:On October 01 2013 04:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. There is one, he's called Jack. Neo is broke as a joke, come on man. <3 Neo more broke than the FGC
#quartercircleforwardfired
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On October 01 2013 04:41 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. Not necessarily. As it stands now teams consist generally only of a starting roster and nothing else. Sure there might be "subs" but they tend to be in name only and called upon only when dire need arises. This doesn't have to be the case. Why not have say a 6/7/8/etc. man roster. Maybe some of those in the roster aren't quite as good but offer better media exposure. Maybe those can be the face of the team or even play in say lesser cups the team doesn't need to their full strength for.
Just to point out, Najin Sword's captain, SSONG, didn't play at all, despite being one of the best known members of the team previously, and was the one who stepped out to do the drawing for bracket stage matchups and was the first Sword player to make an appearance at S3.
Basically Koreans are way ahead of you huehue.
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EPT
