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On October 01 2013 02:29 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 02:00 TheYango wrote:
TBH I think for the bottom end LCS teams, it's pretty shitty for their morale to be playing only LCS. A team really does need to be winning things at least some of the time to be able to keep morale up, and when you're going 1-2 or 0-3 every week, with nothing else you can play in, it's actually unsurprising that you start to have internal team issues. Really this was not so much due to poor results as it did with VES being composed of shitty personalities. Saying that not performing well caused all this would be an excuse. Many of their players are known to have really terrible personalities that would only naturally cause conflicts within the team. Many LCS teams aren't at the level they want to be and are underperforming compared to their expectations but their atmosphere isn't anywhere near as bad. CLG stays positive despite having the most pressure to perform, and Coast does the same as well despite making finals the season before. They either need a manager that can shape up their players or they need new core players. Maple, Cris, and Evaniskus in particular seem like they are the ones causing a terrible team atmosphere.
This is the team that tried to get Deezer into the LCS, is anyone really surprised they had a bunch of shitty personalities on the team?
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I can imagine the difficultys of a starting LCS team to accomodate for the lcs season. So many starting expenses are needed before Riot pays the players, and even then, moving a whole team and the staff is extremelly expensive. You need sponsors, so you need fanbase. You can stream alot and get fans, but that eats your scrim time and your lcs performance, or you can scrim and hope to have beast performance at lcs to attract people. The players are immature, and this is probably their first experience of living on their own, and experiencing the stress that comes with the need to perform every week.
Vileroze's post shows the lack of iniciative by the players, but at the same time, in a perfect world, and in their mind coming into this, they should not have to worry about this. This is why you have a staff that go with them and get payed. But then for some reason, it is common practice in US to have teenagers in these responsability roles, when what they need is the experience of someone that knows what the fuck they're doing
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Yeah like if C9 had not happened I would say LCS has a problem.
but C9 happened.
News flash: Pro teams being paid by one of the the biggest developers in the world playing in the largest E-Sports league in the worlds should likely have experienced management. Not the type like Marn who just is a partier and there for the ride. Not a person like Guitar whom obviously lacks in the professionalism and previous experience department (and I quote about Deezer on VES "fuck it, baylife").
Jack from C9 basically showed you can take a team from the bottom to the top in one split, but shocker incoming, you need the top of your company to be full of experienced and knowledge people with great attitudes and experience managing pro gamers.
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or failing that, at least 5 blow up beds.
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Why can't other tournaments just work together with Riot? Like say if MLG wants to hold a major tournament in mid April why can't that just be an LCS bye week for all teams involved. Then we could have pros vs ams matches at LAN events every 2 months or so. All that's required is the people in charge of these things to communicate and settle on a $$ amount.
edit: I believe this will happen in 2014 now that everyone has had a chance to settle with the LCS format. We should remember that this was just the first year of LCS so improvements are expected.
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not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side.
yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you 
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On October 01 2013 03:25 Ghost-z wrote:
Why can't other tournaments just work together with Riot? Like say if MLG wants to hold a major tournament in mid April why can't that just be an LCS bye week for all teams involved. Then we could have pros vs ams matches at LAN events every 2 months or so. All that's required is the people in charge of these things to communicate and settle on a $$ amount.
edit: I believe this will happen in 2014 now that everyone has had a chance to settle with the LCS format. We should remember that this was just the first year of LCS so improvements are expected.
the bottleneck isn't at the other tournaments end. its riot not wanting LCS teams to compete outside of the LCS. not other tournaments not wanting to have LCS teams.
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On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you
People believe Vile's story because it's the only one they got. Thanks for the commentary, though I do agree with the point that having an experienced manager does make a difference. C9's success is a clear result of that.
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United States15536 Posts
On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you
It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings.
Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now.
That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back.
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On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings.
reasonable isnt sitting back and waiting a year to comment, this is just talk on a public forum. reasonable is reevaluating your opinion based on new information. so if other people want to add what they know or think, then we can talk about that too. i dont understand how muting yourself in a casual conversation is reasonable.
On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back.
what pitchforks? no one here has said "what a shitbag! no second chances! they should sue! call the sponsors!
super duper irony mode to call out people who havent read every side of the story and not even read what they actually say.
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On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back.
That's the one part I don't actually understand. Do players expect management to come to them and say "Hey we are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what is your thoughts on this?". lol no. I don't see any other method that should be expected then "behind their back".
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On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you
It sounds like it was a learning experience and you were working hard. Good luck preparing for relegation and building team chemistry.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 03:41 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back. That's the one part I don't actually understand. Do players expect management to come to them and say "Hey we are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what is your thoughts on this?". lol no. I don't see any other method that should be expected then "behind their back".
There's probably more to it than vileroze said as it makes it sound like they were planning for him to wake up and suddenly ves to go "nickwu is here, get out". They probably were gonna talk to him and all that and he might have overreacted but idk I'm not gonna claim to know what happened in ves' house.
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On October 01 2013 03:44 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:41 Diamond wrote:On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back. That's the one part I don't actually understand. Do players expect management to come to them and say "Hey we are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what is your thoughts on this?". lol no. I don't see any other method that should be expected then "behind their back". There's probably more to it than vileroze said as it makes it sound like they were planning for him to wake up and suddenly ves to go "nickwu is here, get out". They probably were gonna talk to him and all that and he might have overreacted but idk I'm not gonna claim to know what happened in ves' house.
Agree. Short of being a scumbag when removing the actual person (ie: You are out of team, get out in 20 mins, we don't care where you go) I don't see how you could do this any other way.
Imagine if you went to the player and said "We are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what do you think?" Even if the end result was no change it would put a TON of pressure and stress on the player. Which in this situation in particular the player is already under an incredible amount of it (LCS + family) and would make it even worse, very likely almost guaranteeing even poorer performance.
I've only ever been fired from one job in my life, but I was not upset that they did not discuss it first with me, it's how shit goes.
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LCS is only a 'problem' in NA.
I can't shake the feeling that tons of these NA teams are essentially soloq teams 'living the dream' with no real desire to become a legitimate organization.
its like if a recreation league team got pretty good, and decided to join a professional league, but didn't hire trainers, coaches, talent scouts, a PR/finance guy, etc. They just have this one 'manager' who does everything and is even the maid.
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On October 01 2013 03:49 Kaneh wrote:
LCS is only a 'problem' in NA.
I can't shake the feeling that tons of these NA teams are essentially soloq teams 'living the dream' with no real desire to become a legitimate organization.
its like if a recreation league team got pretty good, and decided to join a professional league, but didn't hire trainers, coaches, talent scouts, a PR/finance guy, etc. They just have this one 'manager' who does everything and is even the maid.
Look who they have to look up to.
curse? CLG? TSM?Dignitas? all of the established teams aren't exactly what you'd call role models for how to set up and run a competitive team. Maybe how to run an entertainment organization, but a professional team? eh.
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On October 01 2013 03:48 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:44 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:41 Diamond wrote:On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back. That's the one part I don't actually understand. Do players expect management to come to them and say "Hey we are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what is your thoughts on this?". lol no. I don't see any other method that should be expected then "behind their back". There's probably more to it than vileroze said as it makes it sound like they were planning for him to wake up and suddenly ves to go "nickwu is here, get out". They probably were gonna talk to him and all that and he might have overreacted but idk I'm not gonna claim to know what happened in ves' house. Agree. Short of being a scumbag when removing the actual person (ie: You are out of team, get out in 20 mins, we don't care where you go) I don't see how you could do this any other way. Imagine if you went to the player and said "We are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what do you think?" Even if the end result was no change it would put a TON of pressure and stress on the player. Which in this situation in particular the player is already under an incredible amount of it (LCS + family) and would make it even worse, very likely almost guaranteeing even poorer performance. I've only ever been fired from one job in my life, but I was not upset that they did not discuss it first with me, it's how shit goes.
Seems pretty shitty to me.Assuming you are friends with your team(you probably are since that is how most teams are made) I'd rather people be honest and tell me if I am being a deadweight.
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The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works.
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okay so i wrote out a response to the nickwu/rosterswap thing, and then i deleted it. it feels like airing out too much dirty laundry. this is probably why i won't ever write a full response to any of this. vileroze isn't a bad guy and i don't want to paint him in a negative light, but he's definitely misrepresenting a lot of what happened. in the end, he wasn't performing, we approached him multiple times throughout the season about his performance, he didn't improve, and then he was replaced.
edit: i even feel bad pointing out that he's embellished a lot of stuff. it makes me feel like i'm calling him a liar. 
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EPT
