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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 03:55 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:49 Kaneh wrote:
LCS is only a 'problem' in NA.
I can't shake the feeling that tons of these NA teams are essentially soloq teams 'living the dream' with no real desire to become a legitimate organization.
its like if a recreation league team got pretty good, and decided to join a professional league, but didn't hire trainers, coaches, talent scouts, a PR/finance guy, etc. They just have this one 'manager' who does everything and is even the maid. Look who they have to look up to. curse? CLG? TSM?Dignitas? all of the established teams aren't exactly what you'd call role models for how to set up and run a competitive team. Maybe how to run an entertainment organization, but a professional team? eh.
To be fair curse seem to be trying to take themselves seriously as an organisation even if they seem hesitant to make any big changes without seemingly saint's approval.
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On October 01 2013 03:56 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:48 Diamond wrote:On October 01 2013 03:44 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:41 Diamond wrote:On October 01 2013 03:38 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:37 AsmodeusXI wrote:On October 01 2013 03:29 gtrsrs wrote:not even gonna bother responding on reddit but i'm surprised that posters here are taking everything that vile said at face value. the absolute bottom line of all of this, is losing is tough. a lot of stuff can be glossed over if you're winning, because the fans are there, the wins are there, the job security is there, probably the sponsorship is there, etc. but when you're losing, everything seems terrible. and all vileroze focused on in his blog was the negative side. yeah, our house has had its share of problems, from attitude to practical, but they were all resolved within a matter of hours, or at the very worst, a day or two. i've worked my ass off to provide solutions to all the problems that vile had. for anyone that honestly believes that all we have to eat at the velocity house is hot pockets and hatred, i have some prime real estate down by the swamp to sell you  It's almost as if you expect TL posters to be reasonable and wait for both sides of a story before calling people out, especially when they really don't know the real positions of anyone involved. Like you expect us to act like... rational human beings. Both sides of stories are boring and take time, why take time forming opinions when you can raise your pitchforks right now. That being said I would like to hear more about this nickwu business as it does sound pretty scummy to talk about replacing a player behind his back. That's the one part I don't actually understand. Do players expect management to come to them and say "Hey we are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what is your thoughts on this?". lol no. I don't see any other method that should be expected then "behind their back". There's probably more to it than vileroze said as it makes it sound like they were planning for him to wake up and suddenly ves to go "nickwu is here, get out". They probably were gonna talk to him and all that and he might have overreacted but idk I'm not gonna claim to know what happened in ves' house. Agree. Short of being a scumbag when removing the actual person (ie: You are out of team, get out in 20 mins, we don't care where you go) I don't see how you could do this any other way. Imagine if you went to the player and said "We are thinking of replacing you with Player X, what do you think?" Even if the end result was no change it would put a TON of pressure and stress on the player. Which in this situation in particular the player is already under an incredible amount of it (LCS + family) and would make it even worse, very likely almost guaranteeing even poorer performance. I've only ever been fired from one job in my life, but I was not upset that they did not discuss it first with me, it's how shit goes. Seems pretty shitty to me.Assuming you are friends with your team(you probably are since that is how most teams are made) I'd rather people be honest and tell me if I am being a deadweight.
The thing is however it's not like a decision was made from what Vile made it sound like. It was an initial discussion. Nothing might have even come from it. They could have easily debated for an hour, and decide they want to stick with Vile. In that case why add that pressure?
Aside for that with the money that is relieved by LCS teams, like it or not, this is now a business. MRN for example was an $80,000+ revenue a year business (just from Riot money alone) run like a group of friends, and we see how that worked out.
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On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works.
I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent)
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On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works.
Maybe NA version of NLB will help but it's hard to tell given how players treat soloq
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent)
I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas?
Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance.
I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier.
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Jintae maybe? I don't know the circumstances of his joining of Coast though
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On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:
I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent)
To add on to what i wrote Allowing teams to play in amateur tournaments/cross region and giving more exposure to those tournaments lets teams scout out players as well.
On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:
I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas?
Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance.
I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier.
Talent doesn't only appear when you are playing seriously though. Faker plays only ever half serious at best in solo queue NA, but he still shows his talent. you don't need to be in a tryhard atmosphere to stand out, you just need someone paying attention to the other players. A manager with a level head and good sense of the game should be able to watch replays and pick out players who stand out regardless of how tryhard they are.
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On October 01 2013 04:03 PrinceXizor wrote:
Talent doesn't only appear when you are playing seriously though. Faker plays only ever half serious at best in solo queue NA, but he still shows his talent. you don't need to be in a tryhard atmosphere to stand out, you just need someone paying attention to the other players. A manager with a level head and good sense of the game should be able to watch replays and pick out players who stand out regardless of how tryhard they are.
Faker didn't get this good by trolling NA solo queue all day. If a player wants to improve he has to be very serious about improving, working hard, analyzing his mistakes, etc. People aren't magically born with Faker's talent, it's something that is trained over a period of time. NA soloqueue is very unlikely going to give rise to a talent like Faker because it just isn't a good environment to train seriously.
Of course when an outsider with Faker's talent does come into NA solo queue, his talent is extremely obvious to see even when he's just trolling around.
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On October 01 2013 04:09 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:03 PrinceXizor wrote:
Talent doesn't only appear when you are playing seriously though. Faker plays only ever half serious at best in solo queue NA, but he still shows his talent. you don't need to be in a tryhard atmosphere to stand out, you just need someone paying attention to the other players. A manager with a level head and good sense of the game should be able to watch replays and pick out players who stand out regardless of how tryhard they are. Faker didn't get this good by trolling NA solo queue all day. If a player wants to improve he has to be very serious about improving, working hard, analyzing his mistakes, etc. People aren't magically born with Faker's talent, it's something that is trained over a period of time. NA soloqueue is very unlikely going to give rise to a talent like Faker because it just isn't a good environment to train seriously. Of course when an outsider with Faker's talent does come into NA solo queue, his talent is extremely obvious to see even when he's just trolling around.
Faker also didn't get discovered as good as he is now. Look at flame. he was picked out by a manager watching a game as a potential star. He joined a pro team, got destroyed, had only one top notch champion, and within a couple months of inhousing dramatically improved.
its a fallacy to assume you pick up a player to play exactly as you see them in solo queue. you just have to look for the signs of a talented player with dedication, rather than their performances in game alone.This is a fallacy prevalent through NA unfortunately. Solo queue isn't a good environment to train seriously, whether its Korean solo Queue or NA. you play solo queue to get your understanding of champions higher, and to work on the basics. the refinement, the raw skill comes from practice later.
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Pretty sure Maradona said Messi would have been a great player even before Messi was anything. I don't think such a person exists in NA, where he sees a player's talent through something more than just his plays? I don't know how to explain it it's like when someone of Maradona's level watches a soccer player, he can discern the guy's abilities beyond just what the guy's doing on the field.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:16 Nos- wrote:
Pretty sure Maradona said Messi would have been a great player even before Messi was anything. I don't think such a person exists in NA, where he sees a player's talent through something more than just his plays? I don't know how to explain it it's like when someone of Maradona's level watches a soccer player, he can discern the guy's abilities beyond just what the guy's doing on the field.
That would be a problem of the analysts (Or lack thereof) for finding new talent, if someone was keeping an eye on solo queue and observed the players then perhaps new talent can be found but that doesn't happen at all (I wonder if it would be that difficult though, with things like summoning.net which allows you to spectate players found surely a team could hire an analyst to at least observe challenger rankings, like see a newcomer in challenger and observe his matches to size him up)
On the other hand I sometimes get the feeling that teams are too player controlled so managers are like "Let's not rock the boat" and don't give much thought to scouting. Like it feels like NiP is the only team that doesn't screw around if they think they can get something better they do it. Godbro being a deadweight? Get extinct, svenskeren doesn't want to play without godbro? Bring along malunoo. Freeze is the most promising ADC in Europe? Bring him in.
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United States37500 Posts
I just want to see teams be willing to explore other options. KR obviously does this best but holy shit NA is just an old boy's club at this point.
NA plz, shit needs to/has to change.
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On October 01 2013 04:21 NeoIllusions wrote:
I just want to see teams be willing to explore other options. KR obviously does this best but holy shit NA is just an old boy's club at this point.
NA plz, shit needs to/has to change.
Riot needs to hold more tournaments for challenger/diamond level 5's. or the big organizations need to hire a manager with control over the roster, and the desire to find talent. Without a method of finding talent there can be no change. Currently the only way new talent filters in is if a team joins LCS and fails and is cannibalized by others.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier.
Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand.
This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS.
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On October 01 2013 04:21 NeoIllusions wrote:
I just want to see teams be willing to explore other options. KR obviously does this best but holy shit NA is just an old boy's club at this point.
NA plz, shit needs to/has to change.
this is how na is with starcraft aswell though, and you call them out for it and you get temp banned ;p
so what can you say. NA does the same thing they do with every game. being good isnt a requirement to being popular, so why be good when you can be popular? very few players manage to do both, and they are the super stars.
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On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:
Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand.
A B-Team would allow for both though, but Riots LCS rules about 1 team per organization mean that The top organizations need to do stuff like EG-Alliance.
On October 01 2013 04:27 turdburgler wrote:
this is how na is with starcraft aswell though, and you call them out for it and you get temp banned ;p
so what can you say. NA does the same thing they do with every game. being good isnt a requirement to being popular, so why be good when you can be popular? very few players manage to do both, and they are the super stars.
Well in Dota NA is definitely making an effort to be Good, the best even. with a bunch of teams fighting to get recognition each with their own star players, only a matter of time before those teams break down and the stars join together as has been done for almost a decade. But the stream culture and riots organizational rules are holding back NA a lot.
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I can swear we just had this same conversation like Friday,
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:27 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:
Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. A B-Team would allow for both though, but Riots LCS rules about 1 team per organization mean that The top organizations need to do stuff like EG-Alliance.
Iirc curse is trying to change that though, idk if they can pull it off but it would really help improve the prospects of more academy teams. Dignitas did try it but gave up very quickly.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier.
Sir, you are EU. Why do you know ninjaken and Quas? :O
Fusilero, I am impressed.
On October 01 2013 04:28 Requizen wrote:
I can swear we just had this same conversation like Friday,
I was busy on Friday, probably missed it.
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EPT
