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On October 01 2013 04:41 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. Not necessarily. As it stands now teams consist generally only of a starting roster and nothing else. Sure there might be "subs" but they tend to be in name only and called upon only when dire need arises. This doesn't have to be the case. Why not have say a 6/7/8/etc. man roster. Maybe some of those in the roster aren't quite as good but offer better media exposure. Maybe those can be the face of the team or even play in say lesser cups the team doesn't need to their full strength for. There are obviously issues with that. It was just a quick thought I had as a way to go around the issue. I don't think it's the only possible way just that there must be avenues that we just aren't trying hard enough to find. When hotshot stepped down he was in the perfect position to start such a movement. It's a pity he instead secluded himself even more than previously
On a similar note, I wonder what it would be like if you used all your subs, and say you wanted to run an assassin comp so you use X mid laner who is a world-class Ahri but the next round you want to run a hyper carry protect comp so you run Y mid who can play Ori or Morg or something.
While it's nice to see pros who are great at every champ of their role, I love seeing players who are masters of one champ just bring their A game and dominate with them.
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United States47024 Posts
The comparison to NA DotA is really moot because compared to LoL there's far less money in streaming DotA because the audience is so much smaller. The amount of viewers that NA DotA streamers get is a pittance compared to what NA LoL streamers get, meaning that when building teams, this is far less in peoples' minds.
As far as I'm concerned, there are still quite a few NA "pros" that have no business calling themselves professional players but are able to sustain themselves off streaming.
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On October 01 2013 04:50 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:41 Numy wrote:On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. Not necessarily. As it stands now teams consist generally only of a starting roster and nothing else. Sure there might be "subs" but they tend to be in name only and called upon only when dire need arises. This doesn't have to be the case. Why not have say a 6/7/8/etc. man roster. Maybe some of those in the roster aren't quite as good but offer better media exposure. Maybe those can be the face of the team or even play in say lesser cups the team doesn't need to their full strength for. There are obviously issues with that. It was just a quick thought I had as a way to go around the issue. I don't think it's the only possible way just that there must be avenues that we just aren't trying hard enough to find. When hotshot stepped down he was in the perfect position to start such a movement. It's a pity he instead secluded himself even more than previously On a similar note, I wonder what it would be like if you used all your subs, and say you wanted to run an assassin comp so you use X mid laner who is a world-class Ahri but the next round you want to run a hyper carry protect comp so you run Y mid who can play Ori or Morg or something. While it's nice to see pros who are great at every champ of their role, I love seeing players who are masters of one champ just bring their A game and dominate with them.
i think a move to specialized players would lead to a massively increased skill level in professional play. even just within esports people often cite proleague as the crowning level of competition and that was like 50% snipers.
On October 01 2013 04:51 TheYango wrote:
The comparison to NA DotA is really moot because compared to LoL there's far less money in streaming DotA because the audience is so much smaller. The amount of viewers that NA DotA streamers get is a pittance compared to what NA LoL streamers get, meaning that when building teams, this is far less in peoples' minds.
As far as I'm concerned, there are still quite a few NA "pros" that have no business calling themselves professional players but are able to sustain themselves off streaming.
but on the flipside to that, sc2 is comparable to dota in terms of streaming viewers, and yet its still preferable to be famous than good there too, because being a popularish streamer is a jumping off point to being invited on to shows, or cups. in terms of delivering 'views' to sponsors streaming numbers are only half the story.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:41 Numy wrote:
Not necessarily. As it stands now teams consist generally only of a starting roster and nothing else. Sure there might be "subs" but they tend to be in name only and called upon only when dire need arises. This doesn't have to be the case. Why not have say a 6/7/8/etc. man roster. Maybe some of those in the roster aren't quite as good but offer better media exposure. Maybe those can be the face of the team or even play in say lesser cups the team doesn't need to their full strength for.
There are obviously issues with that. It was just a quick thought I had as a way to go around the issue. I don't think it's the only possible way just that there must be avenues that we just aren't trying hard enough to find.
When hotshot stepped down he was in the perfect position to start such a movement. It's a pity he instead secluded himself even more than previously
That still raises the question of why you'd want 5 real players and a 6th player as a streaming personality rather than just 6 streaming personalities.
In fact, the more people you have making stream revenue, the less incentive you have to actually try hard and get into LCS when practicing to stay on top in LCS would take away from streaming hours anyway.
On October 01 2013 04:52 turdburgler wrote:
but on the flipside to that, sc2 is comparable to dota in terms of streaming viewers, and yet its still preferable to be famous than good there too, because being a popularish streamer is a jumping off point to being invited on to shows, or cups. in terms of delivering 'views' to sponsors streaming numbers are only half the story.
That's a totally different issue because of how cross-regional competition in SC2 is so pervasive that the level of "good" required to actually go anywhere on the basis of your skill and not your popularity is unrealistically high for most players.
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On October 01 2013 04:52 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:50 Requizen wrote:On October 01 2013 04:41 Numy wrote:On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. Not necessarily. As it stands now teams consist generally only of a starting roster and nothing else. Sure there might be "subs" but they tend to be in name only and called upon only when dire need arises. This doesn't have to be the case. Why not have say a 6/7/8/etc. man roster. Maybe some of those in the roster aren't quite as good but offer better media exposure. Maybe those can be the face of the team or even play in say lesser cups the team doesn't need to their full strength for. There are obviously issues with that. It was just a quick thought I had as a way to go around the issue. I don't think it's the only possible way just that there must be avenues that we just aren't trying hard enough to find. When hotshot stepped down he was in the perfect position to start such a movement. It's a pity he instead secluded himself even more than previously On a similar note, I wonder what it would be like if you used all your subs, and say you wanted to run an assassin comp so you use X mid laner who is a world-class Ahri but the next round you want to run a hyper carry protect comp so you run Y mid who can play Ori or Morg or something. While it's nice to see pros who are great at every champ of their role, I love seeing players who are masters of one champ just bring their A game and dominate with them. i think a move to specialized players would lead to a massively increased skill level in professional play. even just within esports people often cite proleague as the crowning level of competition and that was like 50% snipers.
Exactly what I was trying to compare it to. It was always cool to watch proleague and see a TvT sniper come out and end a 2 game streak from the other team singlehandedly.
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United States47024 Posts
If role/champion specific swaps were worth it, people would have figured that out in a decade of competitive DotA.
It turns out that learning to coordinate a whole different team dynamic with a 6th man is harder in the long run than having someone learn a new hero, even though you have short-term gains in having immediate access to someone playing that champ rather than having to wait for someone to learn it. But in the long run, you're basically trying to have the other 4 people work twice as hard coordinating with whoever your 5th man is.
Personally, I think this champ/style specific sub shit needs to hurry up and die.
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Snipers are great so long as  Sniper isn't one of them.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:52 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:50 Requizen wrote:On October 01 2013 04:41 Numy wrote:On October 01 2013 04:37 Kaneh wrote:On October 01 2013 04:25 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2013 04:02 Fusilero wrote:On October 01 2013 03:59 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 01 2013 03:56 xes wrote:
The problem is that the players form the team, rather than a team being formed from picked players. CLG's tryouts were essentially established network circlejerks.
Imagine if you had a company come with $$$ and buy a LCS team and then say "we /will/ fire you if you suck and replace you with soloq talent." Now obviously soloq talent blows, but given enough teams doing this and enough time then soloq becomes a valid avenue to become pro. That's how the korean scene works which is why their soloq is serious and also why they can actively replace slumping players, cultivate B teams, and pull Faker out of the ladder and have him crush the pro scene in less than a year.
NA soloq is probably too entrenched as terribad trolling, so what Riot should do is sculpt the less established (but currently still infested with pro circlejerk) ranked 5s ladder into something serious. Regular tournaments and disqualify any teams with duplicate players/smurfs.
Edit: Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to go through in transforming the eSports infrastructure and I'm not really saying how we can get to X but pointing out how Korea does X and why X works. I'd go far enough to say that Korea doesn't work so well because of solo queue, but because korea is constantly scouting out talent and picking people up for B teams. NA for example, only ever attempts to reuse talent. Thats quite a distinction. The method in which you FIND the talent doesn't matter. But NA isn't looking for it. (the established LCS teams that is, obviously new and forming teams want to find talent) I feel like both are a problem, talent gets recycled loads due to how silly top NA solo queue is so there's a real problem of finding new players there. Like who was the last player to come of note from NA solo queue, ninjaken and quas? Even then ninjaken is absurdly unproven and quas is still heavily hype than substance. I suppose there's rhux but he was found in an unorthodox way and should be treated as an outlier. Talent gets recycled on NA because the money isn't in performing well, it's in streaming. This is especially true for sponsor organizations, not just for players. From a sponsor perspective, it's more reliable to have 5 players that are popular streamers already and generate consistent stream views than to have 5 players that are actually good, but will take time and energy to cultivate into being popular enough to sell their brand. This is even more pronounced when we're talking about up-and-coming players trying to make it INTO LCS. So basically we're screwed until a sponsor comes along with enough money that they don't care about streams, they care about winning. Not necessarily. As it stands now teams consist generally only of a starting roster and nothing else. Sure there might be "subs" but they tend to be in name only and called upon only when dire need arises. This doesn't have to be the case. Why not have say a 6/7/8/etc. man roster. Maybe some of those in the roster aren't quite as good but offer better media exposure. Maybe those can be the face of the team or even play in say lesser cups the team doesn't need to their full strength for. There are obviously issues with that. It was just a quick thought I had as a way to go around the issue. I don't think it's the only possible way just that there must be avenues that we just aren't trying hard enough to find. When hotshot stepped down he was in the perfect position to start such a movement. It's a pity he instead secluded himself even more than previously On a similar note, I wonder what it would be like if you used all your subs, and say you wanted to run an assassin comp so you use X mid laner who is a world-class Ahri but the next round you want to run a hyper carry protect comp so you run Y mid who can play Ori or Morg or something. While it's nice to see pros who are great at every champ of their role, I love seeing players who are masters of one champ just bring their A game and dominate with them. i think a move to specialized players would lead to a massively increased skill level in professional play. even just within esports people often cite proleague as the crowning level of competition and that was like 50% snipers. Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:51 TheYango wrote:
The comparison to NA DotA is really moot because compared to LoL there's far less money in streaming DotA because the audience is so much smaller. The amount of viewers that NA DotA streamers get is a pittance compared to what NA LoL streamers get, meaning that when building teams, this is far less in peoples' minds.
As far as I'm concerned, there are still quite a few NA "pros" that have no business calling themselves professional players but are able to sustain themselves off streaming. but on the flipside to that, sc2 is comparable to dota in terms of streaming viewers, and yet its still preferable to be famous than good there too, because being a popularish streamer is a jumping off point to being invited on to shows, or cups. in terms of delivering 'views' to sponsors streaming numbers are only half the story.
NA SC2 functions differently from NA dota/league though. EG players do lots of shows and casting, ROOT gets by on whatever they can and a fairly large chunk of NA talent are part time students or have graduated (QXC. suppy and caliber come to mind)
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How can it die if it's not a thing in the first place? Or do champ/style subs exist in the Asian scene?
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On October 01 2013 04:56 TheYango wrote:
If role/champion specific swaps were worth it, people would have figured that out in a decade of competitive DotA.
It turns out that learning to coordinate a whole different team dynamic with a 6th man is harder in the long run than having someone learn a new hero, even though you have short-term gains in having immediate access to someone playing that champ rather than having to wait for someone to learn it. But in the long run, you're basically trying to have the other 4 people work twice as hard coordinating with whoever your 5th man is.
Personally, I think this champ/style specific sub shit needs to hurry up and die.
Hire identical twins as your 5th and 6th man. have them learn different champs, enjoy. <3
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:58 Requizen wrote:
How can it die if it's not a thing in the first place? Or do champ/style subs exist in the Asian scene?
It really isn't, seven man rosters are normally "We're gonna try a new guy but we're gonna hold onto the old guy". It's not like gankedbymom, zefa or shacker were actually radical changes to their teams in terms of playstyle or champion pools.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:58 Requizen wrote:
How can it die if it's not a thing in the first place? Or do champ/style subs exist in the Asian scene?
Ostensibly, I thought this was the reason for teams like Frost starting to use a sub like GBM.
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On October 01 2013 01:45 Clinic wrote:
at this point it's clear that official riot lcs needs official riot dorms for all teams with official riot schedules and nutrition
As funny as this is, it would probably help quite a majority of the players.
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GBM as the head of a team would be amazing. So much publicity from dat name in foreign audiences.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Like go onto leaguepedia and look at the seven man rosters in Korea, right now there are IM #1 (But why would they bother with smebpanda and midserf), blaze (Which just didn't work in the slightest), shield had one but it didn't take them long to focus on zefa, SKT but marin and beezlehan are going to form their own team. Besides that there a bunch of talents that are being transitioned in like looper and nagne.
On October 01 2013 05:05 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
GBM as the head of a team would be amazing. So much publicity from dat name in foreign audiences.
If the new CJ shake up of shy/ambition/flame/space/madlife happens GBM would probably lead a new brother team.
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That feel when you know you're going to get banned because after asking your Spanish Speaking (4 other) teammates to speak english in ranked, and they won't. So You respond with nothing but OLE OLE OLE for the rest of the game. Worth it?
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On October 01 2013 05:04 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 01:45 Clinic wrote:
at this point it's clear that official riot lcs needs official riot dorms for all teams with official riot schedules and nutrition As funny as this is, it would probably help quite a majority of the players.
I mean, didn't OddOne get scurvy...?
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On October 01 2013 05:08 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 05:04 ketchup wrote:On October 01 2013 01:45 Clinic wrote:
at this point it's clear that official riot lcs needs official riot dorms for all teams with official riot schedules and nutrition As funny as this is, it would probably help quite a majority of the players. I mean, didn't OddOne get scurvy...?
shoulda just ![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100204054514/leagueoflegends/images/9/95/Remove_Scurvy.jpg)
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Anyone knows what happened to SmashGizmo? used to follow religously his stream, but havent seen much of him lately.
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EPT
