|
On September 27 2013 01:48 Alaric wrote:
Basically it's close to how EU LCS viewership has been wondering whether SK would oust Ocelote or not if they end up relegated because of his underwhelming performances.
(Losing hyrqbot and Kev1n is going to hurt them big time tho, Kev1n was pretty consistent and hyrqbot was doing a good job, even if they retain Candypanda.)
Basically. As for Ocelote, the answer is probably not.
Now, I would argue that things are changing now, as the old pro aristocracy in NA is steadily dying out as they underperform in comparison to newer teams (as seen by the steadily worsening placement of such teams), and for Dig, Curse, and CLG (to a lesser extent TSM due to their comparative strength over the other three, and their massive [any annoyingly baylife] fanbase), these are teams that, looking at the trend, should be concerned about their team's future, if they continue to underperform. CLG and Curse are the most likely to undergo a more radical reform of their lineup, as Odee for Dig did state that he'd prefer not to disturb the team dynamic with such shuffles (so changes on that end are going to be relatively minor adjustments).
I would like to see some more adjustment to the LCS system, to allow for harsher relegation practices to encourage a stronger season performance, but that's unlikely to happen. Would absolutely like to see more during off-season, but eh.
|
On September 27 2013 01:53 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:36 Lord Tolkien wrote:On September 27 2013 01:33 Numy wrote:On September 27 2013 01:25 Requizen wrote:On September 27 2013 01:23 TheYango wrote:On September 27 2013 01:19 Nos- wrote:
Teams are also reluctant to let go of old players even if they underperform, due to their popularity with the audience. I understand the reasoning for it, it just contributes to why NA is uncompetitive. The streamer culture in NA is integral to why LoL was successful and still key to its popularity, but also does inhibit its competitive growth on NA. Partially why I was rather impressed when HSGG stepped down. I'm not his biggest fan, but it takes a fair amount of composure and modesty to step down as the face of an organization for the betterment of the team. Sadly it didn't do enough to help them :\ What I don't understand is he can still be the face of the team even if he's not on the starting roster. Can stream/be doing interviews etc. Liquid from Curse is more exposed and he's just the manager. I said it before and I'll say it again, while HotshotGG wasn't the best player, CLG's problems stemmed primarily from areas that were at most tangentially related to him, and numerous major overhauls of the roster has not helped at all. Don't know how that has to do with what I said but I'll bite. CLGs problems pretty much all stem from Doublelift and Chauster still being on the roster. I don't know enough of double to assess if they could keep him and still be able to fix their problems but Chauster has to leave either way
Wait wut? DL is the problem for CLG?
|
On September 27 2013 01:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:53 Numy wrote:On September 27 2013 01:36 Lord Tolkien wrote:On September 27 2013 01:33 Numy wrote:On September 27 2013 01:25 Requizen wrote:On September 27 2013 01:23 TheYango wrote:On September 27 2013 01:19 Nos- wrote:
Teams are also reluctant to let go of old players even if they underperform, due to their popularity with the audience. I understand the reasoning for it, it just contributes to why NA is uncompetitive. The streamer culture in NA is integral to why LoL was successful and still key to its popularity, but also does inhibit its competitive growth on NA. Partially why I was rather impressed when HSGG stepped down. I'm not his biggest fan, but it takes a fair amount of composure and modesty to step down as the face of an organization for the betterment of the team. Sadly it didn't do enough to help them :\ What I don't understand is he can still be the face of the team even if he's not on the starting roster. Can stream/be doing interviews etc. Liquid from Curse is more exposed and he's just the manager. I said it before and I'll say it again, while HotshotGG wasn't the best player, CLG's problems stemmed primarily from areas that were at most tangentially related to him, and numerous major overhauls of the roster has not helped at all. Don't know how that has to do with what I said but I'll bite. CLGs problems pretty much all stem from Doublelift and Chauster still being on the roster. I don't know enough of double to assess if they could keep him and still be able to fix their problems but Chauster has to leave either way Wait wut? DL is the problem for CLG?
Potentially yes but also no. Every roster change as started out trying to do a different style but quickly defaults to the exact same style of "protect the double" which as we all know just isn't working out anymore. Seems either double in unable to change so his new teammates always have to change or he is but something is making them not. He isn't playing well enough to carry anyone and the current meta doesn't favour that style so it stands to reason that they should not always be defaulting to it.
That's why I said Chauster has to go. Him and double are pretty much the only constant factor in the team and they keep having the exact same issues so it stands to reason that you remove the constants allowing rebuilding. I believe double is perfectly capable of change so that's why I said he might not be an issue.
|
NA doesn't have B-teams/practice squads and I think they need to to remain competitive.
I also think that there are a lot of stream viewers who would watch 5v5s with team commentary. I know they want to keep scrims secret but there should be at least some streams of non-important scrims or something. I see no reason why they can't build up popularity/marketability that way.
|
On September 27 2013 01:30 Chexx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:29 Dandel Ion wrote:On September 27 2013 01:27 The_Unseen wrote:On September 27 2013 01:02 Advocado wrote:
Is there a liquid practice group on EU? Apparently, been tried, never succeeded. Make it happen with me <3 Yeah, not enough interest. Nobody stepped up from the community to organize it. Most TL LoL Staff members are in the US
This. There was even a thread about EU inhouse games a couple of weeks/months ago which had enough people who wanted to participate. There was just noone who wanted to organise it (me included).
|
United States47024 Posts
On September 27 2013 01:55 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I would like to see some more adjustment to the LCS system, to allow for harsher relegation practices to encourage a stronger season performance, but that's unlikely to happen. Would absolutely like to see more during off-season, but eh.
Yeah, Riot kind of did the opposite to keep Curse and CLG in LCS, so...
|
On September 27 2013 01:55 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:48 Alaric wrote:
Basically it's close to how EU LCS viewership has been wondering whether SK would oust Ocelote or not if they end up relegated because of his underwhelming performances.
(Losing hyrqbot and Kev1n is going to hurt them big time tho, Kev1n was pretty consistent and hyrqbot was doing a good job, even if they retain Candypanda.) Basically. As for Ocelote, the answer is probably not. Now, I would argue that things are changing now, as the old pro aristocracy in NA is steadily dying out as they underperform in comparison to newer teams (as seen by the steadily worsening placement of such teams), and for Dig, Curse, and CLG (to a lesser extent TSM due to their comparative strength over the other three, and their massive [any annoyingly baylife] fanbase), these are teams that, looking at the trend, should be concerned about their team's future, if they continue to underperform. CLG and Curse are the most likely to undergo a more radical reform of their lineup, as Odee for Dig did state that he'd prefer not to disturb the team dynamic with such shuffles (so changes on that end are going to be relatively minor adjustments). I would like to see some more adjustment to the LCS system, to allow for harsher relegation practices to encourage a stronger season performance, but that's unlikely to happen. Would absolutely like to see more during off-season, but eh.
While this season was underwhelming for oce, I don't agree that they will be relegated because of him. They tied for the 3rd worth team, but all the standings were close and SK could have won a lot of the games they didn't. Kev1n and Hrqbot were solid though. I think a lot of this has to do with playing the old meta, the old strategies and not playing new tricks. I feel that it would be very easy for the old dogs to learn new tricks if they just did. I don't feel like dota-esque shuffles are really needed for teams in LoL as much; while teams can trade and get rid of players, etc. I do feel that the changes being advocated are a bit more extreme than I'm expecting.
|
Okay.
I would like somebody to explain to me how in the world Trinity Force went from an item that nobody built ever to an item that people are honestly considering when you aren't even getting a Sheen proc off of it.
It seems like you guys have a bad case of crazy item hype-itis. Lets look at these two examples, bruiser Nidalee and Nasus with Trinity+IBG.
I'm Nasus. We know I want boots, and we know I want a Spirit Visage. So I'm already at 20% CDR. I want IBG or Trinity, which leaves me with 3 item slots to play with.
Lets say I get Trinity first. What is IBG giving me?
70 armor, 500 mana, 30 AP, 10% CDR, and a slow field/aoe farm tool.
For my 3 other items I want 10% CDR and not 20%, so I can't get a Frozen Heart anymore. Since I want 10%, I'm probably gonna grab a Locket (we're assuming this is top lane Nasus and not jungle Nasus so no jungle item.) I want 2 more items and these can sort of be Sunfire and whatever else.
Instead of IBG, lets say I got a Frozen Heart. This is giving me 25 more armor than IBG and capping out my CDR. Now I don't have to get the Locket for CDR, so I can turn that item slot into a Randuins, which still gives me an AoE slow field. I can still get a Sunfire for waveclear, and because it's really good on Nasus. My last item can be I dunno, something tanky a Banshee's or whatever. In the end I'm tankier, have just as much CDR, still have good waveclear, and still have lots of slows.
Now, lets say I get IBG first. What is Trinity giving me? Lets assume that all the other items we get are purely defensive.
30 AP
30 AD
30% attackspeed
10% crit
250 HP
200 mana
8%+20whatever movespeed
And an extra 87 damage to my Sheen procs.
This is a lot of stats sure, but what other items could we get here?
Lets look at that IE. 70 AD, 25% crit, 50% crit damage. How do these compare?
With 9 in offensive masteries and Trinity, our Nasus has 158.3 AD. His autos do an average of 174.13 damage after factoring crit.
With the same masteries and IE, our Nasus has 198.3 AD. His autos do an average of 272.6625 damage after factoring crit. This is an increase of 98.5325, more damage than we're getting increased off our Sheen proc.
Now lets look at this in terms of raw DPS. What's our attackspeed with each build? I'm actually not going to count the extra 2% or whatever attackspeed from masteries because I don't know how much it's correct to be getting, but this will slightly favor IE over Trinity and we can say it cancels out the negligable extra damage from bonus AP.
With Trinity: 1.22
With IE: 1.03
With 40% CDR we're also getting an extra auto every 2.4 seconds, or an extra 0.41 autos per second. So, lets revise that.
Trinity: 1.63 aspd total
IE: 1.44 aspd total
We're also getting a Sheen proc every siphoning strike, or an extra 0.41 sheen procs per second. What's our total DPS?
Trinity: 174.13 * 1.63 + (0.41 * 232.6) = 379.1979
IE: 272.6625 * 1.44 + (0.41 * 145.375) = 452.23775
So, as we can see, even with the extra attackspeed and extra Phage proc damage, a Nasus with IBG+IE is doing nearly 20% more damage than a Nasus with IBG+Trinity. If you added the extra damage the 30 AP is giving he'd still be doing more damage.
So realistically, what is Trinity giving you that IE isn't? Movespeed and 250 HP, for a loss in damage. If you really need to have that HP, why don't we try a Ravenous Hydra instead? The active on that gives us an extra auto every 10 seconds, so 0.1 extra autos per second.
Hydra: 191.3 * 1.54 + (0.41 * 145.375) = 354.20575
As we can see, Hydra is giving us nearly the DPS of a Trinity, even counting the extra attackspeed and crit. Unless a fight actually lasts exactly 9.5 seconds or so I'm really undervaluing the Hydra active in that calculation as well, so I'm comfortable saying the DPS here is relatively equal. But Hydra also gives 12% lifesteal, and makes the AoE scale with Nasus's passive lifesteal. Realistically after 2-3 attacks and one Q, Nasus has gotten the 250 health back that he would have been getting on Trinity.
Black Cleaver is also a sensible option if you want HP+damage, especially since it gives 10% CDR, which means one of your remaining 2 item slots doesn't need to be Locket. I'm not going to go on with the damage calculation here because then I have to start factoring enemy armor, but lets just say that once you get your BC stacks up, BC is also going to be outdamaging Trinity and also making your team do more damage. If you really want me to post another giant wall of text you can question this.
So, basically, is the extra movespeed on Trinity really worth it here? It's 8%+20 movespeed, with an extra little boost after you kill something.
If I'm using Ghost, my movespeed as Nasus is going to be 496.625 (there are diminishing returns, check http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed)
If I'm using Ghost and have Trinity, my movespeed as Nasus is going to be 526.725. We're getting an extra 30 movespeed but sacrificing damage and potentially also tankiness depending on what other item we get.
Literally a Zephyr would do almost identical DPS to Trinity (360ish) and give very similar movespeed, and make you tankier since now you can buy a srsface tank item over Locket and get ninja tabi instead of Merc treads.
So, I'm tired now, and I don't really want to do Nidalee (also Nidalee is dumb), but I hope you guys can see my point. If you want Trinity for your Sheen proc, get a Frozen Heart. If you want IBG for your Sheen proc, other items are going to outdamage Trinity while providing more tankiness and potentially the same movespeed.
But don't get Trinity+IBG.
|
Thing is you are completely ignoring item buildup and merely looking at the final product which isn't an accurate representation of how a game goes. Looking at finished builds always give a different picture than looking at buildups in respect to the game flow.
|
On September 27 2013 02:10 Numy wrote:
Thing is you are completely ignoring item buildup and merely looking at the final product which isn't an accurate representation of how a game goes. Looking at finished builds always give a different picture than looking at buildups in respect to the game flow.
IE PD Tryndamere more cost efficient than any of the shiv or bork or hydra garbage everyone tries amirite
|
If you want Trinity and are going Frozen Heart over IBG, the build path is straight up better because Glacial Heart is the same on both and getting a second Sheen is 1200g in useless stats.
If you want IBG and are buying a Trinity after, I'd like you to show me what order you're getting your items in.
Am I getting Trinity second, before any tank items? Then maybe that's true because you can sit on a Phage and a Zeal. But are you really doing that on Nasus?
I doubt it. Realistically your extra Trinity Force on IBG Nasus is going to be your 6th item, after getting all your tank stuff. So no matter how you look at it you're either buying a Phage and then sitting on 2k gold, or a Brutalizer and then sitting on 2k gold, or a Stinger and then sitting on 2k gold, etc.
|
United States47024 Posts
Ketara, literally the only person saying you should get both Trinity and IBG on Nasus was Requizen and nobody was agreeing with him. People are disagreeing with you saying that Trinity isn't good on Nasus, or that IE or BotRK are better.
|
You don't need that much math to come to the conclusion IBG+TF isn't good... >_>
Also the general impression I'm getting is you severely underrate movement speed, when its absolutely critical when you're Nasus. You're not zipping around with ghost all of the time.
|
On September 26 2013 18:23 Paegan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 18:17 cLutZ wrote:On September 26 2013 18:09 Paegan wrote:
Will my Blitz beat Elementz' thresh? we will see who runs hook city Sorry to hear you dropped to bronze. you're right im in bronze damn im awful at this game can u give me tips to get silver
Sad when no one jumps on my elementz hate train.
|
TLDR: Triforce+IBG is stupid. So are IE/BotRK on Nasus. Get cdr, Triforce, a bunch of resists, and LW.
|
Yeah that's fine, Trinity is good on Nasus.
But Trinity+IBG is not.
What I was saying was that IF you are already getting an IBG on Nasus, and IF you want a second damage item after that, an IE would be better than a Trinity. I never said that you should get IE to the exclusion of either Trinity or IBG, you obviously want one of the two. How was that ever even in question?
|
On September 27 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote:
Ketara, literally the only person saying you should get both Trinity and IBG on Nasus was Requizen and nobody was agreeing with him. People are disagreeing with you saying that Trinity isn't good on Nasus, or that IE or BotRK are better.
You forgot about Prince Darknesszor
Also IBG will proc the 1.25x AoE damage while Trinity does the 2x single target to your main person.
|
On September 27 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote:
Ketara, literally the only person saying you should get both Trinity and IBG on Nasus was Requizen and nobody was agreeing with him. People are disagreeing with you saying that Trinity isn't good on Nasus, or that IE or BotRK are better.
I said repeatedly that its not optimal and that other options are better. Nasus and Nid are like the only ones I'd advocate it on as a hypersituational build. Neo and someone were talking about it, I chimed in.
I don't even play Nasus or Nid lol.
|
United States47024 Posts
I thought someone tested and confirmed that the wiki is wrong?
|
On September 27 2013 02:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:55 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I would like to see some more adjustment to the LCS system, to allow for harsher relegation practices to encourage a stronger season performance, but that's unlikely to happen. Would absolutely like to see more during off-season, but eh. Yeah, Riot kind of did the opposite to keep Curse and CLG in LCS, so...
Yeah, they already got backlash last split for players not having enough job security and all that stuff. I mean, I totally get that it's hard for these players to commit to LCS and drop their job/school just to possibly be done after 3 months and be fucked, I can totally see the difficulties. However, that's one of the many reasons why Koreans/Chinese are so much better, because you can simply be out of the door tomorrow if you start slacking.
It's really hard to find the right balance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
