|
So I'm pretty confident in saying that Ryze now sucks. His laning got gutted and the movespeed active on his ult really does not make up for it in any way/shape/form.
That being said, I agree with the range nerfs since I think that fits Ryze's style more, but I think Ryze needs to be able to tank up a little more quickly and keep his movespeed as a passive.
Ryze's laning phase got hit really hard with the range nerfs, and I honestly can't place him in any lane. I simply don't think he's effective at much of anything anymore. Top is arguably the only lane in which he makes sense now, but his base stats and mobility are so bad that he's really easy to kill with all the high mobility junglers and laners that exist.
Here are some changes I think would make him pretty cool:
1) Give his ult a passive movespeed buff that doubles when activated (10/20/30 -> 20/40/60)
2) Remove the spellvamp on his ult and give Ryze a shield that scales based on how many spell casts he gets in during the ult (lasts until the end of his ult). Shield Strength: 100+30/150+40/200+50 (numbers will prob need tweaking)
3) Change the duration of his ult to 6 seconds across the board
3) Change his auto attack range to match his spell range (quality of life change)
4) Buff his base stats (maybe let him get MR/lvl? That seems dangerous to me though)
What do people think?
|
On September 13 2013 06:38 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:29 Amui wrote:On September 13 2013 06:19 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it.
I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league.
When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose.
Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years. I think it has some dependance on what transferable skills they learned while in the military. I don't think there are many jobs with worse transferable skills than progamer though(successful or otherwise), so it's not hard to go up from there. I'd say, look at it like this: Hiring an ex-progamer is no different than an ex-child actor, or frankly, a high school grad. They are all basically somewhere between 16 and 20 on the maturity scale. In Korea, after any of those things end, you go for 2 years of military service, and get maturity. Coming out, everyone is basically at the same level. The ex-gamer in KR is older, yes, but the guy who went in at 18 still forgot all the relevant skills he learned in school, just like the gamer, in those two years.
Well, yeah, the ex pro gamer has actually accomplished something in life with hard work in dedication but you're comparing them to someone who has literally done nothing. Compared to someone who's coming out of college they're going to have the disadvantage most of the time unless they're super famous.
|
On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out
right...
I really agree with the rest of your post though!
|
On September 13 2013 06:41 LoCicero wrote:
So I'm pretty confident in saying that Ryze now sucks. His laning got gutted and the movespeed active on his ult really does not make up for it in any way/shape/form.
That being said, I agree with the range nerfs since I think that fits Ryze's style more, but I think Ryze needs to be able to tank up a little more quickly and keep his movespeed as a passive.
Ryze's laning phase got hit really hard with the range nerfs, and I honestly can't place him in any lane. I simply don't think he's effective at much of anything anymore. Top is arguably the only lane in which he makes sense now, but his base stats and mobility are so bad that he's really easy to kill with all the high mobility junglers and laners that exist.
Here are some changes I think would make him pretty cool:
1) Give his ult a passive movespeed buff that doubles when activated (10/20/30 -> 20/40/60)
2) Remove the spellvamp on his ult and give Ryze a shield that scales based on how many spell casts he gets in during the ult (lasts until the end of his ult). Shield Strength: 100+30/150+40/200+50 (numbers will prob need tweaking)
3) Change the duration of his ult to 6 seconds across the board
3) Change his auto attack range to match his spell range (quality of life change)
4) Buff his base stats (maybe let him get MR/lvl? That seems dangerous to me though)
What do people think?
They were playing with increasing his base HP and base armor in the PBE, but it got reverted.
Giving him MR/lvl is crazy talk, no ranged champion has MR/lvl. I know it's not a real reason but the "melee gets MR/lvl ranged don't" is kind of aesthetically nice (except for when it doesn't happen, like galio)
|
On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. I mean, that's what makes the difference in my opinion. You either cash in out of your three minutes of fame, or try to build a legacy upon what you have created thus far. With popularity, comes all these endorsements, and not all of them are for the better (in terms of your gaming career), and that's why legendary e-Sports such as BoxeR, XellOs, and July all refused to sell out, and actually lost their income potential trying to build something that was more long lasting, and while not all of them succeeded in their endeavours, it's what separates them from the likes of sAviOr who just cashed in what he could by any means and continues to whore money off his past glories by streaming on Afreeca. There are those who just try to be the best, those who even try to build something beyond their individual gains like BoxeR, and there are those who are in it for the money, and then rationalize things around that. I have absolutely zero sympathy, and not much respect to those who purposely prioritize their immediate income potential over everything else, then bemoan the consequences of those actions. Really, nobody is stopping these players from giving it their all, and that's often why these young blood outperforms all these "old" gamers (who are barely out of their early twenties), because their passion for the game supercedes everything else (not because of the micro-second reflexes like so many people believe, in my opinion), whereas all these guys who have wised up to the realities of life start to prioritize other things. That's almost all that separates these guys in my opinion. Sure I understand their choices, but I really, I'm not here to understand why these people fail, I'm here to watch the struggles people go through in their journey to become the best.
That's the thing, no pro in NA bemoans about being outclassed by Koreans. Too busy raking in dat dough. Pride sure sounds good, until you see Voyboy ballin' it up with all dat $$$.
|
On September 13 2013 06:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:38 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Amui wrote:On September 13 2013 06:19 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:
[quote]
If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone.
Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs.
The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery.
I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years. I think it has some dependance on what transferable skills they learned while in the military. I don't think there are many jobs with worse transferable skills than progamer though(successful or otherwise), so it's not hard to go up from there. I'd say, look at it like this: Hiring an ex-progamer is no different than an ex-child actor, or frankly, a high school grad. They are all basically somewhere between 16 and 20 on the maturity scale. In Korea, after any of those things end, you go for 2 years of military service, and get maturity. Coming out, everyone is basically at the same level. The ex-gamer in KR is older, yes, but the guy who went in at 18 still forgot all the relevant skills he learned in school, just like the gamer, in those two years. Well, yeah, the ex pro gamer has actually accomplished something in life with hard work in dedication but you're comparing them to someone who has literally done nothing. Compared to someone who's coming out of college they're going to have the disadvantage most of the time unless they're super famous.
Yes...but I understand that Koreans who go to college still have to serve, and usually do before going? In either case, the gamer who wants to go to college post-military is on the same footing as one who didn't game. And if he just wants to go into the workforce, is arguably in a stronger position than one who didn't. Its a significant cultural advantage.
And EU is similar, like I said they already have a Soccer-Academy-System for people who are super talented at 14 to get schooling while training in a "sport" for 8 hours a day. Plus, a huge welfare state that honestly lets you suck at gaming while still being fairly comfortable.
Edit:
And Ryze need not get his ult buffed. He needs Q, and E buffs. He's basically Vlad without sustain. And pool is > prison 90% of the time.
|
*slowclap gif* for that post Letmelose
maybe you or Chexx can post a short summary of what the koreans on inven and co. think about loco&woong's move?
|
On September 13 2013 06:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out right... I really agree with the rest of your post though!
I'm intrigued. Why do you think otherwise?
|
Baa?21243 Posts
On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow.
I mean, at some level I agree with your general sentiment, but I also disagree. I think it's simply too easy for us, as spectators who are not in the situation these players are and who are not personally affected by these kinds of decisions, to rattle off lofty rhetoric about what should or should not happen. Things are rarely as simple as they appear from the outside, and I think it's a bit naive to think you can categorically dismiss people's choices as greedy or lacking integrity or what have you.
On September 13 2013 06:50 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out right... I really agree with the rest of your post though! I'm intrigued. Why do you think otherwise?
Boxer is a marketer. He built up his brand and it wasn't necessarily for the sake of "his game." Look at SC2 ~_~
|
On September 13 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. I mean, at some level I agree with your general sentiment, but I also disagree. I think it's simply too easy for us, as spectators who are not in the situation these players are and are personally affected by these kinds of decisions, to rattle off lofty rhetoric about what should or should not happen. Things are rarely as simple as they appear from the outside, and I think it's a bit naive to think you can categorically dismiss people's choices as greedy or lacking integrity or what have you. Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:50 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out right... I really agree with the rest of your post though! I'm intrigued. Why do you think otherwise? Boxer is a marketer. He built up his brand and it wasn't necessarily for the sake of "his game." Look at SC2 ~_~
I think it's pretty disingenuous to compare NA LoL progamers/streamers to SaviOr, as well.
|
On September 13 2013 06:54 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. I mean, at some level I agree with your general sentiment, but I also disagree. I think it's simply too easy for us, as spectators who are not in the situation these players are and are personally affected by these kinds of decisions, to rattle off lofty rhetoric about what should or should not happen. Things are rarely as simple as they appear from the outside, and I think it's a bit naive to think you can categorically dismiss people's choices as greedy or lacking integrity or what have you. On September 13 2013 06:50 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out right... I really agree with the rest of your post though! I'm intrigued. Why do you think otherwise? Boxer is a marketer. He built up his brand and it wasn't necessarily for the sake of "his game." Look at SC2 ~_~ I think it's pretty disingenuous to compare NA LoL progamers/streamers to SaviOr, as well.
In terms of "selling out" is not too far off, at least in what it does to their respective careers. The difference to what it does to the scene around them is it stagnates it, not destroy it like savior did.
|
Well I think Korean sponsors not being loyal to players but rather their performance plays a big role in the scene.
|
On September 13 2013 06:56 Ethelis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:54 wei2coolman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late).
The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment.
On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. I mean, at some level I agree with your general sentiment, but I also disagree. I think it's simply too easy for us, as spectators who are not in the situation these players are and are personally affected by these kinds of decisions, to rattle off lofty rhetoric about what should or should not happen. Things are rarely as simple as they appear from the outside, and I think it's a bit naive to think you can categorically dismiss people's choices as greedy or lacking integrity or what have you. On September 13 2013 06:50 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out right... I really agree with the rest of your post though! I'm intrigued. Why do you think otherwise? Boxer is a marketer. He built up his brand and it wasn't necessarily for the sake of "his game." Look at SC2 ~_~ I think it's pretty disingenuous to compare NA LoL progamers/streamers to SaviOr, as well. In terms of "selling out" is not too far off, at least in what it does to their respective careers. The difference to what it does to the scene around them is it stagnates it, not destroy it like savior did.
I don't think Korean progamers vs NA progamers are any different in terms of what motivates them. The difference is the structure for Korean LoL scene, means financial success is tied to being skilled, while NA LoL scene is tied to being entertaining.
#givesaviora2ndchance
#woongstillshadyasfuck
|
On September 13 2013 06:56 Ethelis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:54 wei2coolman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late).
The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment.
On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. I mean, at some level I agree with your general sentiment, but I also disagree. I think it's simply too easy for us, as spectators who are not in the situation these players are and are personally affected by these kinds of decisions, to rattle off lofty rhetoric about what should or should not happen. Things are rarely as simple as they appear from the outside, and I think it's a bit naive to think you can categorically dismiss people's choices as greedy or lacking integrity or what have you. On September 13 2013 06:50 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out right... I really agree with the rest of your post though! I'm intrigued. Why do you think otherwise? Boxer is a marketer. He built up his brand and it wasn't necessarily for the sake of "his game." Look at SC2 ~_~ I think it's pretty disingenuous to compare NA LoL progamers/streamers to SaviOr, as well. In terms of "selling out" is not too far off, at least in what it does to their respective careers. The difference to what it does to the scene around them is it stagnates it, not destroy it like savior did.
Ok, we have to be careful here. The league of legends streaming community is one of the largest in NA. It paved the way for pros to sustain themselves, popularize their brand, and improve the community as a whole. Hell, would league of legends even be what it is today without the early streamers like hotshotgg? It REVOLUTIONIZED the scene and Riot owes them a huge thanks as it had a huge hand in making the game popular. Would NA teams be what they are today without it? The fanbase that TSM and CLG have gained from streaming has helped them support themselves, expand, and do what they do professionally. It's not the same in NA. You can't not stream and expect to run a team without a major sponsor which they didn't at the time.
Not just that but how much NA streamers have helped out all regions from people watching and improving their play is a big deal as well.
|
On September 13 2013 06:50 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:38 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Amui wrote:On September 13 2013 06:19 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years. I think it has some dependance on what transferable skills they learned while in the military. I don't think there are many jobs with worse transferable skills than progamer though(successful or otherwise), so it's not hard to go up from there. I'd say, look at it like this: Hiring an ex-progamer is no different than an ex-child actor, or frankly, a high school grad. They are all basically somewhere between 16 and 20 on the maturity scale. In Korea, after any of those things end, you go for 2 years of military service, and get maturity. Coming out, everyone is basically at the same level. The ex-gamer in KR is older, yes, but the guy who went in at 18 still forgot all the relevant skills he learned in school, just like the gamer, in those two years. Well, yeah, the ex pro gamer has actually accomplished something in life with hard work in dedication but you're comparing them to someone who has literally done nothing. Compared to someone who's coming out of college they're going to have the disadvantage most of the time unless they're super famous. Yes...but I understand that Koreans who go to college still have to serve, and usually do before going? In either case, the gamer who wants to go to college post-military is on the same footing as one who didn't game. And if he just wants to go into the workforce, is arguably in a stronger position than one who didn't. Its a significant cultural advantage. And EU is similar, like I said they already have a Soccer-Academy-System for people who are super talented at 14 to get schooling while training in a "sport" for 8 hours a day. Plus, a huge welfare state that honestly lets you suck at gaming while still being fairly comfortable.
Most people in Korea spend their teens slaving away at their textbooks in order to get into college, serve the country in your early-to-mid twenties, then return to finish your degree. Then, if you're lucky, apply for a job aged just shy of being thirty years old (give or take a couple of years).
Either that, or you skip that process entirely, and gather money through others means. That means getting your own business started, working your way up from rock-bottom in various industries, or in the case of these professional-gamer-hopefuls, spend their teens and early twenties trying to cut it as a top-tier professional gamer.
There's a world of difference for someone returning from their military service to complete their degree, or someone returning to their post in a job they've already spent a couple of years of experience in, and someone who literally spent all their time living in a rent-free environment with next to zero-pay in hopes that it'll all work out. There's never been a case (a successful case) of a professional gamer who returned to complete their dreams after they served the nation, so you're basically starting from rock-bottom, and remember that a lot of these guys who went all-in are also highschool drop-outs. The threat of becoming a highschool drop-out, and returning from the military service aged nearly thirty is something that is very real to a lot of Korean gamers, and it's not something you can shrug off so easily. It's hard to explain the enormous strain it puts on anyone trying their luck in an industry that's as unstable as professional gaming, without being Korean yourself.
|
On September 13 2013 06:41 LoCicero wrote:
So I'm pretty confident in saying that Ryze now sucks. His laning got gutted and the movespeed active on his ult really does not make up for it in any way/shape/form.
That being said, I agree with the range nerfs since I think that fits Ryze's style more, but I think Ryze needs to be able to tank up a little more quickly and keep his movespeed as a passive.
Ryze's laning phase got hit really hard with the range nerfs, and I honestly can't place him in any lane. I simply don't think he's effective at much of anything anymore. Top is arguably the only lane in which he makes sense now, but his base stats and mobility are so bad that he's really easy to kill with all the high mobility junglers and laners that exist.
Here are some changes I think would make him pretty cool:
1) Give his ult a passive movespeed buff that doubles when activated (10/20/30 -> 20/40/60)
2) Remove the spellvamp on his ult and give Ryze a shield that scales based on how many spell casts he gets in during the ult (lasts until the end of his ult). Shield Strength: 100+30/150+40/200+50 (numbers will prob need tweaking)
3) Change the duration of his ult to 6 seconds across the board
3) Change his auto attack range to match his spell range (quality of life change)
4) Buff his base stats (maybe let him get MR/lvl? That seems dangerous to me though)
What do people think?
I feel the same way. Riot always and really underestimates how big an impact hitting ranges hurts champs. Ryze's laning was always suspect due to his base stats but could compensate with his damage and respectable range. I really think Riot should've accompanied the range nerfs with some stat buffs.
The movespeed change on ult sounds pretty cool. It fits thematically with the Riot teasers too :D.
I'm confused about 2. Does Ryze get the shield as soon as he presses ult and it gains 30/40/50 shield hp as he casts spells? Or does it stack up and Ryze gets it all at once when the ult expires? I honestly really like the spellvamp on his ult though. At levels 2~3, if you get some cdr you can use it as a really nice sustain tool. It's especially potent even in fights if you get Visage, which is not a bad buy on Ryze.
3a is neat; currently level 1 ult is honestly pretty pathetic since it's so short you can only really get one spell rotation off plus maybe an extra Q. Dunno if Ryze needs aa range buff; I doubt it's really necessary and would personally rather see more base hp or armor especially since Riot wants to push Ryze as a "mid-range" mage.
I think giving him MR/lvl is really dangerous; Ryze already gets reasonably tanky and it could be overkill. It also is contrary to Riot's balancing history as only melee champs get mr/lvl.
|
Is 22.5 mr at level 18 really that scary?
Also, is buying a zonyas on jax a bad idea? He seems to scale ok with ap, armor is armor, and the active is good in teamfights.
|
On September 13 2013 07:05 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:50 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:38 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Amui wrote:On September 13 2013 06:19 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:
[quote]
It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar.
It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports.
Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years. I think it has some dependance on what transferable skills they learned while in the military. I don't think there are many jobs with worse transferable skills than progamer though(successful or otherwise), so it's not hard to go up from there. I'd say, look at it like this: Hiring an ex-progamer is no different than an ex-child actor, or frankly, a high school grad. They are all basically somewhere between 16 and 20 on the maturity scale. In Korea, after any of those things end, you go for 2 years of military service, and get maturity. Coming out, everyone is basically at the same level. The ex-gamer in KR is older, yes, but the guy who went in at 18 still forgot all the relevant skills he learned in school, just like the gamer, in those two years. Well, yeah, the ex pro gamer has actually accomplished something in life with hard work in dedication but you're comparing them to someone who has literally done nothing. Compared to someone who's coming out of college they're going to have the disadvantage most of the time unless they're super famous. Yes...but I understand that Koreans who go to college still have to serve, and usually do before going? In either case, the gamer who wants to go to college post-military is on the same footing as one who didn't game. And if he just wants to go into the workforce, is arguably in a stronger position than one who didn't. Its a significant cultural advantage. And EU is similar, like I said they already have a Soccer-Academy-System for people who are super talented at 14 to get schooling while training in a "sport" for 8 hours a day. Plus, a huge welfare state that honestly lets you suck at gaming while still being fairly comfortable. Most people in Korea spend their teens slaving away at their textbooks in order to get into college, serve the country in your early-to-mid twenties, then return to finish your degree. Then, if you're lucky, apply for a job aged just shy of being thirty years old (give or take a couple of years). Either that, or you skip that process entirely, and gather money through others means. That means getting your own business started, working your way up from rock-bottom in various industries, or in the case of these professional-gamer-hopefuls, spend their teens and early twenties trying to cut it as a top-tier professional gamer. There's a world of difference for someone returning from their military service to complete their degree, or someone returning to their post in a job they've already spent a couple of years of experience in, and someone who literally spent all their time living in a rent-free environment with next to zero-pay in hopes that it'll all work out. There's never been a case (a successful case) of a professional gamer who returned to complete their dreams after they served the nation, so you're basically starting from rock-bottom, and remember that a lot of these guys who went all-in are also highschool drop-outs. The threat of becoming a highschool drop-out, and returning from the military service aged nearly thirty is something that is very real to a lot of Korean gamers, and it's not something you can shrug off so easily. It's hard to explain the enormous strain it puts on anyone trying their luck in an industry that's as unstable as professional gaming, without being Korean yourself.
So basically the flows for non gamer
highschool>college>military>college>workforce
or highschool>(workforce)>military>workforce
vs
(highschool)>gamer>military>(college)>workforce.
Gamer option is pretty fucking allin, especially if you've dropped out. As a dropout you'll have fuckall for an education, and nothing aside from military for experience if you fail to make it big as a pro.
|
Speaking of Ryze, the Olaf rework is just not working in my opinion. Honestly, somehow, they have managed to make him weaker than the live version at anything besides dueling mid-lategame.
On September 13 2013 07:14 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 07:05 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:50 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:38 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Amui wrote:On September 13 2013 06:19 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years. I think it has some dependance on what transferable skills they learned while in the military. I don't think there are many jobs with worse transferable skills than progamer though(successful or otherwise), so it's not hard to go up from there. I'd say, look at it like this: Hiring an ex-progamer is no different than an ex-child actor, or frankly, a high school grad. They are all basically somewhere between 16 and 20 on the maturity scale. In Korea, after any of those things end, you go for 2 years of military service, and get maturity. Coming out, everyone is basically at the same level. The ex-gamer in KR is older, yes, but the guy who went in at 18 still forgot all the relevant skills he learned in school, just like the gamer, in those two years. Well, yeah, the ex pro gamer has actually accomplished something in life with hard work in dedication but you're comparing them to someone who has literally done nothing. Compared to someone who's coming out of college they're going to have the disadvantage most of the time unless they're super famous. Yes...but I understand that Koreans who go to college still have to serve, and usually do before going? In either case, the gamer who wants to go to college post-military is on the same footing as one who didn't game. And if he just wants to go into the workforce, is arguably in a stronger position than one who didn't. Its a significant cultural advantage. And EU is similar, like I said they already have a Soccer-Academy-System for people who are super talented at 14 to get schooling while training in a "sport" for 8 hours a day. Plus, a huge welfare state that honestly lets you suck at gaming while still being fairly comfortable. Most people in Korea spend their teens slaving away at their textbooks in order to get into college, serve the country in your early-to-mid twenties, then return to finish your degree. Then, if you're lucky, apply for a job aged just shy of being thirty years old (give or take a couple of years). Either that, or you skip that process entirely, and gather money through others means. That means getting your own business started, working your way up from rock-bottom in various industries, or in the case of these professional-gamer-hopefuls, spend their teens and early twenties trying to cut it as a top-tier professional gamer. There's a world of difference for someone returning from their military service to complete their degree, or someone returning to their post in a job they've already spent a couple of years of experience in, and someone who literally spent all their time living in a rent-free environment with next to zero-pay in hopes that it'll all work out. There's never been a case (a successful case) of a professional gamer who returned to complete their dreams after they served the nation, so you're basically starting from rock-bottom, and remember that a lot of these guys who went all-in are also highschool drop-outs. The threat of becoming a highschool drop-out, and returning from the military service aged nearly thirty is something that is very real to a lot of Korean gamers, and it's not something you can shrug off so easily. It's hard to explain the enormous strain it puts on anyone trying their luck in an industry that's as unstable as professional gaming, without being Korean yourself. So basically the flows for non gamer highschool>college>military>college>workforce or highschool>(workforce)>military>workforce vs (highschool)>gamer>military>(college)>workforce. Gamer option is pretty fucking allin, especially if you've dropped out. As a dropout you'll have fuckall for an education, and nothing aside from military for experience if you fail to make it big as a pro.
Its not like American HS dropouts have rosy options. They can't even join the military.
|
On September 13 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. I mean, at some level I agree with your general sentiment, but I also disagree. I think it's simply too easy for us, as spectators who are not in the situation these players are and who are not personally affected by these kinds of decisions, to rattle off lofty rhetoric about what should or should not happen. Things are rarely as simple as they appear from the outside, and I think it's a bit naive to think you can categorically dismiss people's choices as greedy or lacking integrity or what have you. Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:50 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On September 13 2013 06:29 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers. BoxeR, ... refused to sell out right... I really agree with the rest of your post though! I'm intrigued. Why do you think otherwise? Boxer is a marketer. He built up his brand and it wasn't necessarily for the sake of "his game." Look at SC2 ~_~
BoxeR could have cashed in way earlier if he were really into that sort of thing. There's a reason why he refused personal sponsorships in order to form a professional team that had financial stability. It also would have been way easier for him to become more of a personality like H.O.T-Forever tried to be, and that way he wouldn't have had to struggle competiting against the flooding talent that came with the growing industry years past his prime. I actually have next to zero insight in the things he did in the Starcraft 2 scene, but that was ten years past his debut, and was pretty much finished as a competitive gamer. Making judgements of BoxeR for what he did in Stacraft 2 is like making judgements of Michael Jordan as an athlete based on his baseball career, in my eyes.
It's naive to expect people to give it their all, when the fact of the matter almost none of us are capable of doing the same. However, those who do reap the benefits after giving their all should be lauded, and respected. It's as insulting to dismiss someone's efforts as being a mere product of a system, when often times, these individual struggles actually influence the direction of the system. The pioneers like HotShotGG has done great things for the scene, there's no question about it, but it also set the direction that the system took off in. If people really wanted to become the best, they can change that, instead saying "oh well, it is how it is, guess I might as well rake in the dough", and at the same time lament that they don't have the perfect set up in order to become better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
