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Sometimes I think I should buy the Blasting Wand first for TF's Lichbane.
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Baa?21243 Posts
if you're not hurting for the mana you do more damage with blasting wand amp vs a sheen tbh
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On September 13 2013 05:24 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:15 wei2coolman wrote:On September 13 2013 05:12 Ketara wrote:On September 13 2013 05:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 13 2013 04:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:I mean, I kinda agree with the OP there. Void is a great item against high MR targets. However, it's also a great item against lower MR targets because of its high base damage. The only thing that worries me about nerfing it is how strong SV is - but I expect that to take some hits as well. Stacking armor and MR is already insanely good as it is... Considering how little damage adc's actually do to the typical randuins+thornmail+SV tanky bruiser, nerfing LW is going to be insane... Ideally, each item (aside from maybe boots) should be a thoughtful choice with multiple options of what to buy at certain timings. LW and Void Staff for some champions falls into "buy as your 2nd item in all situations no matter what" territory. Supposing that other items are adjusted to compensate, fixing that issue would be a good thing. It didn't sound like an agreement of "Yeah lets cut LW's armor pen in the next patch with no other changes!" It sounded like a more general design agreement that would prompt them looking into it down the road. That was maybe true for LW on some champions, but Voidstaff wasn't quite nearly as obvious. There were plenty of other itemizations you'd want to aim for before Voidstaff. Usually DFG/Zhonya's/Chalice/DC/Morellos/Liandries/Abyssal/RoA/Seraphs, most AP carries want at least 2 of these items before getting Voidstaff, just due to sheer utility of them, outside of damage. LW 2nd is a maybe, considering which ADC's, but multplicative scaling from AS and Crit, usually reserved LW to 3rd item. People may skip voidstaff regularly, that's largely because they suck at math or are following the lead of someone else who also sucks at math. ('Murican's can legitimately blame the way math is taught in schools for their mathematical illiteracies). The reasonable argument is that LW/Void etc should be good as a counter to tankiness, but should not be good always. They currently are always good. Zed's build what, Bork Cleaver Lw? To nuke the enemy squishies? That's painfully dumb design. SV + Omen are probably too strong also, but that's not the same issue at all.
BT > BC when you want to nuke somebody, unless you've got a way of stacking BC super quickly at the start of your combo that isn't also your main source of damage (so no, can't quote Talon or Pantheon, even Wukong's pretty meh since it's a 5 stacks thing), and BC actually has a good part of the bruta price in the flat ArPen, so it's not that counter-intuitive against squishies (well bruta isn't, BC is dumb if you rush it).
On September 13 2013 05:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:On September 13 2013 05:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:On September 13 2013 05:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
hat helps you clear waves better
that's a consideration that's often overlooked in raw damage comparisons Unless you're really behind on timings, by the time you'd have DCap vs. Void, most mids should be able to clear with relative ease. At least, afaik. It depends on the champion. For Lux if you don't get an early deathcap you can literally hit timings where your E gets caster minions to 1 HP. Then again, I may just be spoiled by Viktor's clear with augment :3
"Damn I've been getting camped and am pretty behind, how can I rec- Hey I've managed to farm double dring + Augment:Death, time to one-shot the wave and roam a bit!"
(Alternatively that's also, combined with level 11 powerspike, when people try to kill Viktor because they're ahead (oftimes I get camped so they actually only won 2v1s) and don't understand when I 100-0 them for the shutdown and take their tower.
People don't know how to play against Viktor, despite how simple it is.)
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On September 13 2013 05:36 TheYango wrote:
Admittedly red, it's pretty common to see players at all levels buy Deathcap when Void Staff would be the better damage item across the board.
I'm not saying Void 6th item is best or anything, just that 'math' supporting void as 2nd being best in almost every scenario is clearly flawed reasoning. This is one of those cases where practicality outdoes numbers, and I'm willing to bet all the pros(even if we want to just say Koreans because they're sogud) not buying it second aren't doing so because they're completely ignorant. There are so many more factors that play into 'why I want this item now' than 'how much damage does it make me do against targets with whatever MR breakpoint.'
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I wouldn't be so quick to count out pros doing inefficient item builds. That happens all the time.
You'd have to give a specific champion and I'm sure we could figure it out.
Like, on the mids I have a lot of experience with (Lux and Lissandra), when to get Void is a thoughtful decision. On other mids, eeeeehhh not so much.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On September 13 2013 06:02 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:On September 13 2013 05:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:On September 13 2013 05:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
hat helps you clear waves better
that's a consideration that's often overlooked in raw damage comparisons Unless you're really behind on timings, by the time you'd have DCap vs. Void, most mids should be able to clear with relative ease. At least, afaik. It depends on the champion. For Lux if you don't get deathcap before void you can literally hit timings where your E gets caster minions to 1 HP. Are people comparing wave clear with a completed Deathcap as a second item vs completed voidstaff with another item. Then it's not a fair comparison because you will be onto part of your third item with VS since it's cheaper.
dont even have to look at the full item, sometimes you want a NLR early for clearing in lane, and after you already put down the 1.6k for it, it just makes more sense to shell out 1.7 for a hat than 2.3 for a void
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On September 13 2013 06:02 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:On September 13 2013 05:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:On September 13 2013 05:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
hat helps you clear waves better
that's a consideration that's often overlooked in raw damage comparisons Unless you're really behind on timings, by the time you'd have DCap vs. Void, most mids should be able to clear with relative ease. At least, afaik. It depends on the champion. For Lux if you don't get deathcap before void you can literally hit timings where your E gets caster minions to 1 HP. Are people comparing wave clear with a completed Deathcap as a second item vs completed voidstaff with another item. Then it's not a fair comparison because you will be onto part of your third item with VS since it's cheaper.
Specifically on Lux, and I'm sure this is true for some other champions as well, during the mid game (level 9+) you WILL NOT one shot caster minions with E if you don't have a deathcap.
In fact, you get into situations where when you have the NLR+Blasting Wand you get the caster minions so low (often times just 1-5 HP) that a single hit from one of your minions will kill them, which can make farming a little bit difficult.
Void Staff + another Blasting Wand has the exact same issue. You have to finish the Deathcap before you can instaclear minion waves.
Now, if you're like 10/0 or something you might be far ahead enough to go Void first and it doesn't matter. Likewise, if you got crushed in lane and are levels behind you might be at a point where you're never going to one shot caster minions. If that's the case, Void Staff does more damage to champions.
But in a "normal" game you have to get Deathcap over Void to farm efficiently.
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On September 13 2013 06:02 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:On September 13 2013 05:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:On September 13 2013 05:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
hat helps you clear waves better
that's a consideration that's often overlooked in raw damage comparisons Unless you're really behind on timings, by the time you'd have DCap vs. Void, most mids should be able to clear with relative ease. At least, afaik. It depends on the champion. For Lux if you don't get deathcap before void you can literally hit timings where your E gets caster minions to 1 HP. Are people comparing wave clear with a completed Deathcap as a second item vs completed voidstaff with another item. Then it's not a fair comparison because you will be onto part of your third item with VS since it's cheaper.
I know on Lux, if an NLR(dcap) item isn't your first one, you will basically never be able to clear casters in a single E without becoming ludicrously fed, or finishing DCap.
Other examples - TF, Ahri. People more experienced can chime in, but there are breakpoints with certain builds where you can't clear casters in a single hit.
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On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high.
It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it.
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow.
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On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow.
Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on
hue
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United States47024 Posts
On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow.
To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers.
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On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers.
Well this is a pretty big one.
TOO probably makes several times his LCS salary by simply streaming with 20k viewers. Why practice hardcore for 25k a season when you could stream and get several times more, and get looser practice.
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I generally try to save for NLR with Viktor after the augment and sorcs, just because the enemy mid won't have 60 MR unless they're rushing grail (I mean, at this point I'm pretty much required to hate Lux) and/or have MR runes (most cases, although I see my fair share of AP/level or flat AP blues—I even see people take like AP/armour/AP/AP, what), and the NLR gives me a big enough power spike that I can 100-0 them or other squishies (at this timing all marksmen, almost all supports, and most junglers fall into this category).
Considering Viktor's ult long cd, and the combination of short-ranged Q and lack of instant cc (compared to say Annie who can reduce retaliation with an instant W stun), he has a hard time killing people without diving/flashing/using his ult, so I really want the power spike to tell people "I just burnt a 2 minutes cd to get that kill, haul your ass to drake to make it worth".
However when people start getting MR, I'll often end up completing Zhonya's (again, short range, and sometimes it saves you if you use it early enough that you can get another Q shield before they burst your remaining health) and feel that I lack offensive power compared to the opponent who went deathcap or DFG. So I'll build void staff because saving for deathcap during that lull would take way too long.
On another topic, can you guys use op.gg? Keeps telling me it doesn't recognise me since yesterday night's maintenance, although I've played more than the 6 ranked games it asks.
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On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue
Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years.
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On September 13 2013 06:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:
For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. To be honest, I actually consider this one of the factors that has lead to NA's stagnant growth in the long run--the streamer culture that has grown up hand-in-hand with competitive LoL on NA has promoted a lifestyle that doesn't require you to be the best to be "successful". You don't have to be good if you can get stream viewers.
I mean, that's what makes the difference in my opinion. You either cash in out of your three minutes of fame, or try to build a legacy upon what you have created thus far. With popularity, comes all these endorsements, and not all of them are for the better (in terms of your gaming career), and that's why legendary e-Sports such as BoxeR, XellOs, and July all refused to sell out, and actually lost their income potential trying to build something that was more long lasting, and while not all of them succeeded in their endeavours, it's what separates them from the likes of sAviOr who just cashed in what he could by any means and continues to whore money off his past glories by streaming on Afreeca.
There are those who just try to be the best, those who even try to build something beyond their individual gains like BoxeR, and there are those who are in it for the money, and then rationalize things around that. I have absolutely zero sympathy, and not much respect to those who purposely prioritize their immediate income potential over everything else, then bemoan the consequences of those actions. Really, nobody is stopping these players from giving it their all, and that's often why these young blood outperforms all these "old" gamers (who are barely out of their early twenties), because their passion for the game supercedes everything else (not because of the micro-second reflexes like so many people believe, in my opinion), whereas all these guys who have wised up to the realities of life start to prioritize other things. That's almost all that separates these guys in my opinion. Sure I understand their choices, but I really, I'm not here to understand why these people fail, I'm here to watch the struggles people go through in their journey to become the best.
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On September 13 2013 06:19 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years.
I think it has some dependance on what transferable skills they learned while in the military. I don't think there are many jobs with worse transferable skills than progamer though(successful or otherwise), so it's not hard to go up from there.
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I love new phage in the jungle, go to lane, smite a creep, zoom zoom gank. Pretty fun.
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I feel like I became a man after reading Letmelose's post.
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On September 13 2013 06:29 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 06:19 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 06:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 13 2013 06:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 05:51 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 05:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late).
The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment.
On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? It's a top-heavy system where only most successful gets to make it, for every player that makes the headlines by earning thousands upon thousands through playing a video-game on television, there are hundreds out there that wasted their youth trying to make it in an industry that simply doesn't allow for a bright future for every involved. It's the same story for the vast majority of the people leaving home with almost nothing to go back on, in order to become the next Hollywood superstar. It's really tough out there for everyone, and really, while the lives for those who reached the top in the Korean e-Sports scene look pretty sweet, I could argue that compared to their actual proficiency at the game, the Korean players actually have a much bleeker prospect compared to the players in North America. The presence of the military service alone makes the choice of becoming a professional video-game player a much bigger gamble than someone who just took a year off college to try their luck in e-Sports. Seriously, there are problems out there for everyone, and while there certainly are aspects that makes things hard for the professional gamers in North America, it's not something that cannot be overcome. Seriously, the average joe living in North America has great opportunities to make it in almost any scene, not just video-gaming, and bemoaning the situation because North America doesn't necessary have the best opportunities available looks a little too defeatist in my eyes. It can be done, and sure it's an uphill battle (any battle where you're not already in an advantageous position to be honest), but people have overcome far steeper challenges. It can be done. But that is the point. The tradeoff to being a failed gamer in NA (America especially because our universities have not really caught on to the EU model where soccer/tennis players take off years of school starting at like 15/16) is much higher, and honestly the payoff for being a successful gamer is not really that high. It's not a legitimate viable career choice for any of the regions involved, including Korea. Whereas the guy that didn't make his fortunes as a professional gamer missed out on a bunch of great opportunities available in the United States of America, the Korean kid that skipped lessons to become the best gamer he can be, spent years trying to make it to the top and ended up failing has to go to serve the nation, return with broken dreams aged almost thirty, with zero education and credentials. How accomodating do you think Korea is for these guys? It's a tough industry, and in every single gaming scene out there is a fight for survival for everyone involved, and to be honest, there's no one handing out free cash for those who "took part". You either become the best, or fail miserably trying. There's no two-ways around it. For all the difficulties a professional gamer faces in North America, we could list a similar one for those in other regions, probably an even more extensive one, excluding for a select few. Why are we making excuses for people who's sole purpose is to become the very best? Of course there are reasons for someone becoming the best, and even more reasons for someone failing to become the best. However, in the end, you deal with the cards you have been dealt with, and to be honest, I don't see why the players in North America should be "pitied" somehow. Korea has mandatory military service to fall back on hue Stop pretending that's not a thing. Every single institution in Korea has to deal with the fact that they are hiring/training someone who has just atrophied relevant skills for 2 years. I think it has some dependance on what transferable skills they learned while in the military. I don't think there are many jobs with worse transferable skills than progamer though(successful or otherwise), so it's not hard to go up from there.
I'd say, look at it like this: Hiring an ex-progamer is no different than an ex-child actor, or frankly, a high school grad. They are all basically somewhere between 16 and 20 on the maturity scale. In Korea, after any of those things end, you go for 2 years of military service, and get maturity. Coming out, everyone is basically at the same level. The ex-gamer in KR is older, yes, but the guy who went in at 18 still forgot all the relevant skills he learned in school, just like the gamer, in those two years.
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EPT
