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On August 26 2013 13:09 iCanada wrote:
The thing I dont get about CDR Lucian is he really doesn't have the mana to just get a lot of CDR and spam Q in lane. I'd much rather just rush BT then kill them in half as many Q's.
Dudes out of mana after two trades anyway.
Well, the Q bug gunna be fixed.
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Going back a few pages to the Zac discussion, someone mentioned Zac would still see high pick rates without the passive (wei2?)
While i agree, his passive is probably the most OP thing about him at early levels. Pre-6 he is a squishy, useless son of a bitch who WILL die in a 2v1 situation if you gank somebody with burst and they're smart enough to realise this. Also if you miss E you are 100% useless too ^^ (sure you can try again in 15 seconds so that makes up for it)
Honestly im always fucking shocked when i miss an E into botlane and the ADC chunks me for 10% each time they auto me, this is running standard armor yellows with probably stone/boots at the time.
His passive makes up for this massive shortfall of his by allowing him to fight 2v2's freely without being blown the fuck up (well, being blown up twice), or in a cheekier fashion sacrifice himself for an early tower-dive.
Its honestly the same mid-game too, where you havent got many defensive items yet and you're still a target, they'll pop your passive when you fight and kill you outright if you were stupid. Pre-SV/Sunfire Zac is pretty weak.
So yeah, i feel like his passive makes up for a huge power-lull that he suffers from. The thing is that top-lane Zac will counter this lull by constantly being 100% HP with his sustain and trade like a god with his power-ratios. If your forced to fight evenly or behind at all you are probably going to die.
I feel like his sustain and power-ratios (Dat Q!) are the issue not his passive, his passive makes up for alot of short-comings in his early-mid but his tardfucked ratios and sustain make him even more insane that as long as he never has to fight evenly he'll never lose ^^
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Oh and lol Kinie, Drama son!
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On August 26 2013 13:11 Kinie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 12:29 Nemireck wrote:On August 26 2013 12:25 Kinie wrote:
I'm probably done with league for a while, due to rage/QQ reasons. I'll still contribute to this for discussion purposes, but other than that, done with the game. Haven't you only played for like 3 weeks? Ranked games? Maybe 2 weeks. The fact I've gone 3-16 in my ranked games since going into Silver means either I'm doing something horribly wrong, or my team mates are just that bad. And if it's me doing something wrong, then maybe the replay analysis thread where I posted a replay of my game can help me identify my problems. Personally speaking, the only champ I've built Hurricane on is Caitlyn, and that's usually after going BT > IE > PD > LW, because the hurricane bolts also proc her passive, so in team fights and poking with it, the passive shot will go off every 2-3 shots on your main target instead of 5-7.
If you go 3-16 in silver you're probably doing something wrong. If you go 3-16 but you're dominating lane with a really good KDA then it's not your fault and really unlucky.
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On August 26 2013 13:17 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 13:11 Kinie wrote:On August 26 2013 12:29 Nemireck wrote:On August 26 2013 12:25 Kinie wrote:
I'm probably done with league for a while, due to rage/QQ reasons. I'll still contribute to this for discussion purposes, but other than that, done with the game. Haven't you only played for like 3 weeks? Ranked games? Maybe 2 weeks. The fact I've gone 3-16 in my ranked games since going into Silver means either I'm doing something horribly wrong, or my team mates are just that bad. And if it's me doing something wrong, then maybe the replay analysis thread where I posted a replay of my game can help me identify my problems. Personally speaking, the only champ I've built Hurricane on is Caitlyn, and that's usually after going BT > IE > PD > LW, because the hurricane bolts also proc her passive, so in team fights and poking with it, the passive shot will go off every 2-3 shots on your main target instead of 5-7. If you go 3-16 in silver you're probably doing something wrong. If you go 3-16 but you're dominating lane with a really good KDA then it's not your fault and really unlucky.
I don't remember all the losses, but I do know that for at least 4 of those 16 losses, I won my lane with high CS and/or a positive KDA, and it was only was in the team fights that we lost, either due to not focusing or 1-2 people getting picked off due to the support not warding jungle once lane phase ended.
Also, at least 3 of those losses were me on Zac jungle after successfully ganking in top, mid, and/or bot lane.
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On August 26 2013 13:09 iCanada wrote:
The thing I dont get about CDR Lucian is he really doesn't have the mana to just get a lot of CDR and spam Q in lane. I'd much rather just rush BT then kill them in half as many Q's.
Dudes out of mana after two trades anyway.
i run 21-5-4 for mana regen, and 5 mana regen blues. also his e is reduced to 0 mana cost at rank 5, i max this 2nd. my point is, his mana problems end by mid-late game.
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On August 26 2013 12:40 phyvo wrote:It's surreal reading through RiotScruffy's posts on the skarner rework. He mentions a problem and my brain goes "ooooh yeaaaahh I remember complaining about this and yelling pointlessly on GD that they've just been reworking champs for being too binary and that this very thing makes skarner a binary design." I should get a pipe to go with my glorious game design armchair.
Want to buy PTR* account.
*PTR =/= PBE
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On August 26 2013 13:16 Capped wrote:
Going back a few pages to the Zac discussion, someone mentioned Zac would still see high pick rates without the passive (wei2?)
While i agree, his passive is probably the most OP thing about him at early levels. Pre-6 he is a squishy, useless son of a bitch who WILL die in a 2v1 situation if you gank somebody with burst and they're smart enough to realise this. Also if you miss E you are 100% useless too ^^ (sure you can try again in 15 seconds so that makes up for it)
Honestly im always fucking shocked when i miss an E into botlane and the ADC chunks me for 10% each time they auto me, this is running standard armor yellows with probably stone/boots at the time.
His passive makes up for this massive shortfall of his by allowing him to fight 2v2's freely without being blown the fuck up (well, being blown up twice), or in a cheekier fashion sacrifice himself for an early tower-dive.
Its honestly the same mid-game too, where you havent got many defensive items yet and you're still a target, they'll pop your passive when you fight and kill you outright if you were stupid. Pre-SV/Sunfire Zac is pretty weak.
So yeah, i feel like his passive makes up for a huge power-lull that he suffers from. The thing is that top-lane Zac will counter this lull by constantly being 100% HP with his sustain and trade like a god with his power-ratios. If your forced to fight evenly or behind at all you are probably going to die.
I feel like his sustain and power-ratios (Dat Q!) are the issue not his passive, his passive makes up for alot of short-comings in his early-mid but his tardfucked ratios and sustain make him even more insane that as long as he never has to fight evenly he'll never lose ^^
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Oh and lol Kinie, Drama son!
Well I was mostly talking about the "respawn" part of of his passive, not necessarily his regen part. I'd still think Zac would be extremely viable even without his respawn part of passive. I'd be okay with giving him his insane tenacity on ulti back if he didn't have the respawn passive.
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Or just point and laugh.
Also was playing dominion, wuts some good thresh builds? Did nashors tooth/ Lichbane, I think I can just skip the Nashors tooth and just rush Lichbane + wiglets
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On August 26 2013 12:40 phyvo wrote:It's surreal reading through RiotScruffy's posts on the skarner rework. He mentions a problem and my brain goes "ooooh yeaaaahh I remember complaining about this and yelling pointlessly on GD that they've just been reworking champs for being too binary and that this very thing makes skarner a binary design." I should get a pipe to go with my glorious game design armchair.
honestly I cringed a bit. I used to run him in the jungle way back in season 2, so my opinion is outdated and im also not as good player as scip  but my thoughts about the changes:
WTF ARE YOU GONA DO IN THE GAME?
Wanna jungle? Need W and Q for that. Oh you want gank? You need E and W, and you wont have your main damage source on Q. So wtf am I supposed to do as jungler? Try to gank with E, you fail and now ure screwed cause ure slow as hell in jungle with one less point on Q or loosing a lot of HP because off less point in W. The thing that got me the most was "we will compensate his E heal by buffing the shield" and 5 hp shield increase per level, so +25 shield at max level.
I guess what im complaining is that he has no 1 point wonder (or just 2 good skills like before without points on E while jungling) and all his spells are good, though I'm afraid the base champion will not be too good and playing without one of the spells will severely hinder you. (I guess rank 1 E will have to do for jungling)
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On August 26 2013 12:42 obesechicken13 wrote:
I doubt Hurricane works on Lucian's passive at all but I'll reserve judgement till I see it.
In theory it should. Lucian's passive provides him with an extra attack, and hurricane's passive procs on-attack. The issue is it's not any more synergetic than any other AD carry with some kind of AS steroid. And with how bad hurricane is in practice, not having special synergy with it probably means it's not a good buy on Lucian.
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United States47024 Posts
On-next-attack procs don't proc multiple times with Hurricane. They proc just on the main hit, and Lucian's passive is basically just an on-next-attack proc the same way Sheen is.
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On August 26 2013 13:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 13:16 Capped wrote:
Going back a few pages to the Zac discussion, someone mentioned Zac would still see high pick rates without the passive (wei2?)
While i agree, his passive is probably the most OP thing about him at early levels. Pre-6 he is a squishy, useless son of a bitch who WILL die in a 2v1 situation if you gank somebody with burst and they're smart enough to realise this. Also if you miss E you are 100% useless too ^^ (sure you can try again in 15 seconds so that makes up for it)
Honestly im always fucking shocked when i miss an E into botlane and the ADC chunks me for 10% each time they auto me, this is running standard armor yellows with probably stone/boots at the time.
His passive makes up for this massive shortfall of his by allowing him to fight 2v2's freely without being blown the fuck up (well, being blown up twice), or in a cheekier fashion sacrifice himself for an early tower-dive.
Its honestly the same mid-game too, where you havent got many defensive items yet and you're still a target, they'll pop your passive when you fight and kill you outright if you were stupid. Pre-SV/Sunfire Zac is pretty weak.
So yeah, i feel like his passive makes up for a huge power-lull that he suffers from. The thing is that top-lane Zac will counter this lull by constantly being 100% HP with his sustain and trade like a god with his power-ratios. If your forced to fight evenly or behind at all you are probably going to die.
I feel like his sustain and power-ratios (Dat Q!) are the issue not his passive, his passive makes up for alot of short-comings in his early-mid but his tardfucked ratios and sustain make him even more insane that as long as he never has to fight evenly he'll never lose ^^
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Oh and lol Kinie, Drama son! Well I was mostly talking about the "respawn" part of of his passive, not necessarily his regen part. I'd still think Zac would be extremely viable even without his respawn part of passive. I'd be okay with giving him his insane tenacity on ulti back if he didn't have the respawn passive.
eh. The tenacity that was on his ulti was a way bigger problem than his passive. His passive isn't really all that problematic outside of facilitating early tower dives, whereas the tenacity on his ult made him a problem your squishies literally could not deal with.
Zac doesn't give 2 shits about any tank line you have with his E so your only recourse to keep him from pressuring your squishies out of the fight is to peel him. Except his old ulti gave so much tenacity you basically could not cc or peel him in any meaningful manner. Add to the fact that he actually gains movespeed from his ulti as well, basically means that your squishies will eat a essentially a full Zac damage rotation along with several Ws.
The sustain part of his passive is overhyped imo. It's okay in lane and next to worthless in teamfights, especially after the recent nerf to pickup range. Zac's issue is the fact that he has insane initiation range on top of really respectable damage, especially if he gets fat enough to pick up guise or liandry's. Personally, I think they should just remove the damage from his E entirely and he'd still probably be a top tier pick. Although that would cement him as a laner and likely kill his jungle.
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Fun fact: Lucian's passive shot triggers tidecaller's blessing twice but only uses 1 charge.
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On August 26 2013 13:58 Gahlo wrote:
Fun fact: Lucian's passive shot triggers tidecaller's blessing twice but only uses 1 charge.
Well, multiple instances of Tidecaller's Blessing doesn't stack and just refreshes the duration. Since Lucian's passive hits both shots in less than half a second, this may be a fun fact, but not a very game changing/influential one.
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On August 26 2013 13:57 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 13:34 wei2coolman wrote:On August 26 2013 13:16 Capped wrote:
Going back a few pages to the Zac discussion, someone mentioned Zac would still see high pick rates without the passive (wei2?)
While i agree, his passive is probably the most OP thing about him at early levels. Pre-6 he is a squishy, useless son of a bitch who WILL die in a 2v1 situation if you gank somebody with burst and they're smart enough to realise this. Also if you miss E you are 100% useless too ^^ (sure you can try again in 15 seconds so that makes up for it)
Honestly im always fucking shocked when i miss an E into botlane and the ADC chunks me for 10% each time they auto me, this is running standard armor yellows with probably stone/boots at the time.
His passive makes up for this massive shortfall of his by allowing him to fight 2v2's freely without being blown the fuck up (well, being blown up twice), or in a cheekier fashion sacrifice himself for an early tower-dive.
Its honestly the same mid-game too, where you havent got many defensive items yet and you're still a target, they'll pop your passive when you fight and kill you outright if you were stupid. Pre-SV/Sunfire Zac is pretty weak.
So yeah, i feel like his passive makes up for a huge power-lull that he suffers from. The thing is that top-lane Zac will counter this lull by constantly being 100% HP with his sustain and trade like a god with his power-ratios. If your forced to fight evenly or behind at all you are probably going to die.
I feel like his sustain and power-ratios (Dat Q!) are the issue not his passive, his passive makes up for alot of short-comings in his early-mid but his tardfucked ratios and sustain make him even more insane that as long as he never has to fight evenly he'll never lose ^^
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Oh and lol Kinie, Drama son! Well I was mostly talking about the "respawn" part of of his passive, not necessarily his regen part. I'd still think Zac would be extremely viable even without his respawn part of passive. I'd be okay with giving him his insane tenacity on ulti back if he didn't have the respawn passive. eh. The tenacity that was on his ulti was a way bigger problem than his passive. His passive isn't really all that problematic outside of facilitating early tower dives, whereas the tenacity on his ult made him a problem your squishies literally could not deal with. Zac doesn't give 2 shits about any tank line you have with his E so your only recourse to keep him from pressuring your squishies out of the fight is to peel him. Except his old ulti gave so much tenacity you basically could not cc or peel him in any meaningful manner. Add to the fact that he actually gains movespeed from his ulti as well, basically means that your squishies will eat a essentially a full Zac damage rotation along with several Ws. The sustain part of his passive is overhyped imo. It's okay in lane and next to worthless in teamfights, especially after the recent nerf to pickup range. Zac's issue is the fact that he has insane initiation range on top of really respectable damage, especially if he gets fat enough to pick up guise or liandry's. Personally, I think they should just remove the damage from his E entirely and he'd still probably be a top tier pick. Although that would cement him as a laner and likely kill his jungle.
IMO, it seems like the purpose of ZAC is to be that lategame disturbance who can't be peeled, but is all-in (screw thresh, thresh plus ZAC is obviously an OP combo). The problem is he is not terrible early because of the HP regen passive.
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On August 26 2013 13:54 TheYango wrote:
On-next-attack procs don't proc multiple times with Hurricane. They proc just on the main hit, and Lucian's passive is basically just an on-next-attack proc the same way Sheen is.
Yes, but Lucian's on-next-attack proc is another attack, which procs its own on-attack and on-hit effects, one of which is the hurricane passive.
That is, the hurricane bolts don't trigger Lucian's passive directly, but rather Lucian's passive triggers hurricane twice.
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On August 26 2013 13:54 TheYango wrote:
On-next-attack procs don't proc multiple times with Hurricane. They proc just on the main hit, and Lucian's passive is basically just an on-next-attack proc the same way Sheen is.
Lucian's passive is a bit different. According to wiki, his second hit does proc Hurricane.
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On August 26 2013 14:03 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 13:54 TheYango wrote:
On-next-attack procs don't proc multiple times with Hurricane. They proc just on the main hit, and Lucian's passive is basically just an on-next-attack proc the same way Sheen is. Lucian's passive is a bit different. According to wiki, his second hit does proc Hurricane.
Yeah. It definitely works with Hurricane. There's a reason people were joking about Hurricane + Shiv a while ago.
You can even kill two different minions with it and you're standing right on top of them (so long as you kill the one before the animation for the second starts you'll auto-target something else with it).
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EPT
