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On August 26 2013 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
and assuming you have no bonus AD other than zephyr, zephyr is a 25% dps boost on your Piercing light (more bonus AD makes that % DPS boost increase). So in terms of DPS they are comparable for lucian.
... what.
The more bonus AD you already have, the lower % the 25 AD from Zephyr represent compared to what it already does.
if you've got ~100 bonus AD apart from Zephyr, buying Zephyr "only" increases your dps by 20% on Piercing Light (a bit more, cba pasting decimals).
You're also talking about how CDR reduces your window of vulnerability between skirmishes, while using it to calculate Lucian's damage over several rotations. If you want to think in terms of rotations/skirmishes, you'd rather look at the damage from one then factor in the fact that you're able to reengage faster, since you won't necessarily be able to go in as soon as all spells are available again.
Now I'm not saying PD is necessarily more dps over a single rotation. I could probably do the maths if we agreed on an arbitrary level/items, but it's time-consuming and it's late here so I'd rather not do it now.
On August 26 2013 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:
Why would you rush zephyr first item? Its single item timing is shit. BT / BC / even muramana would be better single item timings.
Muramana sounds weird as "single item timing" considering you ought to have farmed something else by the time the Tear is fully-charged, but that's nit-picking.
They're not talking about first item but this build, where Zephyr is supposed to come after a core of bruta/BT, so it's far from being rushed (and the reason why people were comparing it to PD/Shiv).
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Even in 2 item timing. IE, pd or shiv are all solid 2nd item choice. Muramana only brought up cuz seems like his mana costs suck and his skills seems spammable enough. Murmana proc on his passive sounds pretty powerful too.
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On August 26 2013 10:33 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 10:27 cLutZ wrote:On August 26 2013 10:15 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 26 2013 09:42 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
What are you guys even arguing about
A lot of release champs are still relevant and a lot of new champs are too
Of course in a game with 100+ champs and a constantly changing meta you're gonna have some champs that don't see play but that doesn't make them worse than new ones
TF is still banned in like 90% of games, Karthus still played frequently, Ashe has been seeing a lot of play lately, Kassadin is permabanned, Janna/Malphite/Nasus/Trist/Twitch all see frequent play at pro levels as well as in solo q
All of the champs I just mentioned were in the game ON RELEASE I agree. Whenever I see people QQ about new champs or power creep it just bothers me. People don't seem to realize that champions rise and fall based on the metagame and newer champs are likely to be more suited to the current meta simply because they're designed with a more modern metagame in mind. Very few champions releases actually completely redefine the metagame. On top of that, some of the most problematic kits and champions in the history of LoL are really really fucking old. Shit like Nunu, Soraka, Sona, Urgot, Kassadin, Twisted Fate have all been metagame defining champions and they're all really goddam old. The only thing that annoys me is when champions get released, that have a mechanic that was on a champ that I liked to play (or watch), but that Riot then nerfed that champ because "toxic and unbalanceable". Zed, ZAC, Elise, and Kha6 are the perfect examples. Edit: I forgot Rengar, the king of them all when it comes to this. I'm a little confused... How do the champions that you mention have mechanics that were previously nerfed...
On August 26 2013 10:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Zed and kha6 1v1 kill potential was nerfed on champs like akali, and the unlimited wave clear on talon's rake was nerfed to hell, but was kept on kha6, jayce, and zed for the longest time. On August 26 2013 10:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 10:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 26 2013 10:27 cLutZ wrote:On August 26 2013 10:15 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 26 2013 09:42 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
What are you guys even arguing about
A lot of release champs are still relevant and a lot of new champs are too
Of course in a game with 100+ champs and a constantly changing meta you're gonna have some champs that don't see play but that doesn't make them worse than new ones
TF is still banned in like 90% of games, Karthus still played frequently, Ashe has been seeing a lot of play lately, Kassadin is permabanned, Janna/Malphite/Nasus/Trist/Twitch all see frequent play at pro levels as well as in solo q
All of the champs I just mentioned were in the game ON RELEASE I agree. Whenever I see people QQ about new champs or power creep it just bothers me. People don't seem to realize that champions rise and fall based on the metagame and newer champs are likely to be more suited to the current meta simply because they're designed with a more modern metagame in mind. Very few champions releases actually completely redefine the metagame. On top of that, some of the most problematic kits and champions in the history of LoL are really really fucking old. Shit like Nunu, Soraka, Sona, Urgot, Kassadin, Twisted Fate have all been metagame defining champions and they're all really goddam old. The only thing that annoys me is when champions get released, that have a mechanic that was on a champ that I liked to play (or watch), but that Riot then nerfed that champ because "toxic and unbalanceable". Zed, ZAC, Elise, and Kha6 are the perfect examples. Edit: I forgot Rengar, the king of them all when it comes to this. I'm a little confused... How do the champions that you mention have mechanics that were previously nerfed... Manaless + Sustain. Melle AD Assassins. Splitpushers not named shen (also shen). 6 skill 2 form characters. Strong targeted harass. Need I continue?
Bueller?
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reguarding the question about Lucidity boots, I did the math several pages back, Lucidity boots would have to provide 40% cdr in order to equal the target dummy dps of Berzerkers. that's a pretty big disparity, so while I'm willing to accept that Lucidity boots are a decent pickup for utility reasons, they are without a doubt inferior dps to Berzerker greaves.
here are the math/thoughts if you want to check for accuracy.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NoTdG62.png)
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On August 26 2013 12:10 Slusher wrote:
reguarding the question about Lucidity boots, I did the math several pages back, Lucidity boots would have to provide 40% cdr in order to equal the target dummy dps of Berzerkers. that's a pretty big disparity, so while I'm willing to accept that Lucidity boots are a decent pickup for utility reasons, they are without a doubt inferior dps to Berzerker greaves.
Interesting. Depends on how long engagement is.
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When he first came out I was really looking to try the old MF ult bot build on him as I thought it would be super good. And it felt ok but his ult not being nearly as good as I had thought on paper kinda sucked, however his Dash > double tap > Q > Double tap combo hit like a FUCKING truck, it also costed like half a mana bar, something I've since learned is perhaps bug related?
I since switched to s2 graves build, (s2 adc build with bt first) and haven't felt compelled to try something different as it feels super strong. Though I do find Trinity alluring...
I actually don't understand Zeypher at all his best skill is double tap, which can crit, and he has an ability to cleanse slows.
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On August 26 2013 12:08 wei2coolman wrote:
Even in 2 item timing. IE, pd or shiv are all solid 2nd item choice. Muramana only brought up cuz seems like his mana costs suck and his skills seems spammable enough. Murmana proc on his passive sounds pretty powerful too.
Muramana into FB could be a potential build but without FB I don't think it'd be worth it. But then this leaves him without much DPS aside from relying on his CDR. Something like Botrk would be better as a first item in that case.
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I'm probably done with league for a while, due to rage/QQ reasons. I'll still contribute to this for discussion purposes, but other than that, done with the game.
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On August 26 2013 12:16 Slusher wrote:
When he first came out I was really looking to try the old MF ult bot build on him as I thought it would be super good. And it felt ok but his ult not being nearly as good as I had thought on paper kinda sucked, however his Dash > double tap > Q > Double tap combo hit like a FUCKING truck, it also costed like half a mana bar, something I've since learned is perhaps bug related?
I since switched to s2 graves build, (s2 adc build with bt first) and haven't felt compelled to try something different as it feels super strong. Though I do find Trinity alluring...
I actually don't understand Zeypher at all his best skill is double tap, which can crit, and he has an ability to cleanse slows.
I can see the q mana bug to be fixed next patch so I wouldn't read too much into current mana issues. So muramana could be ignored as potential item build. I'd like to see BC/IE as opening build
On August 26 2013 12:25 Kinie wrote:
I'm probably done with league for a while, due to rage/QQ reasons. I'll still contribute to this for discussion purposes, but other than that, done with the game.
Req dat you?
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On August 26 2013 12:25 Kinie wrote:
I'm probably done with league for a while, due to rage/QQ reasons. I'll still contribute to this for discussion purposes, but other than that, done with the game.
Haven't you only played for like 3 weeks?
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So even though I hate the item, how does Hurricane sound as an alternative to PD on Lucian? I'm assuming that the extra bolts will apply his passive, not sure if they do.
Wondering if you could skip boots on him and do something like DBlade -> BT -> Hurricane because he has a speed boost and a dash which feels like a fair bit of mobility for an AD.
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I could be wrong, but I can't think of anyone other than Teemo that actually benefits from Hurricane, and even then, I don't think Teemo should build Hurricane...
From my experience using it, and watching it being used, I think Hurricane is a terrible item on all champs.
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On August 26 2013 12:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
So even though I hate the item, how does Hurricane sound as an alternative to PD on Lucian? I'm assuming that the extra bolts will apply his passive, not sure if they do.
Wondering if you could skip boots on him and do something like DBlade -> BT -> Hurricane because he has a speed boost and a dash which feels like a fair bit of mobility for an AD.
Hurricaine wouldn't be any better on him than anyone else. He doesn't scale better with Hurricaine than anyone else.
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the AoE area on hurricane is too small to be useful, I haven't even moused over the item in a long time but don't the bolts do %of the auto, which would be a % of 50% early game on Lucian. I'm just not seeing how this would be better than crit.
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It's surreal reading through RiotScruffy's posts on the skarner rework. He mentions a problem and my brain goes "ooooh yeaaaahh I remember complaining about this and yelling pointlessly on GD that they've just been reworking champs for being too binary and that this very thing makes skarner a binary design."
I should get a pipe to go with my glorious game design armchair.
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I doubt Hurricane works on Lucian's passive at all but I'll reserve judgement till I see it.
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I'm thinking of Hurricane as more of a midgame teamfight item, assuming you finish BT sometime in laning. It does 10 + 50% of an auto (I had to look it up, like I said I hate the item), but I was thinking the double shot passive might be useful so you'd essentially be hitting 3 members of the enemy team-- one would take basically 1.5 autos of damage (1 plus 1/2), and the others would take 3/4 of an auto (1/2 plus 1/4, add 10 each apply armor as necessary), and the sheer amount of AS improves his ult a decent bit.
On paper Hurricane should double your damage output, but in practice its pretty crap. Double tap seemed like it had potential, but we'd have to get some testing-- I'm out on some retreat thing before school though. :/
Just a random thought, no probs if its no good.
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Don't hate, but I wanted to promote my stream just this once in GD---I'm trying to get back into solo Q after a 5 month break and I'ma need shit tons of help, so if anyone's interested in yelling at me in twitch chat....
http://www.twitch.tv/waveofshadow
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The thing I dont get about CDR Lucian is he really doesn't have the mana to just get a lot of CDR and spam Q in lane. I'd much rather just rush BT then kill them in half as many Q's.
Dudes out of mana after two trades anyway.
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On August 26 2013 12:29 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 12:25 Kinie wrote:
I'm probably done with league for a while, due to rage/QQ reasons. I'll still contribute to this for discussion purposes, but other than that, done with the game. Haven't you only played for like 3 weeks?
Ranked games? Maybe 2 weeks. The fact I've gone 3-16 in my ranked games since going into Silver means either I'm doing something horribly wrong, or my team mates are just that bad.
And if it's me doing something wrong, then maybe the replay analysis thread where I posted a replay of my game can help me identify my problems.
Personally speaking, the only champ I've built Hurricane on is Caitlyn, and that's usually after going BT > IE > PD > LW, because the hurricane bolts also proc her passive, so in team fights and poking with it, the passive shot will go off every 2-3 shots on your main target instead of 5-7.
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EPT
