EPTBuyng wards and running around playing whack-a-ward is not my idea of playing a video game.
[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 8
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Buyng wards and running around playing whack-a-ward is not my idea of playing a video game. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:17 Amarok wrote: I kind of think one of the main issues with Bulwark and Locket is being overlooked here. Both items were bullshit overpowered. They weren't even particularly bad items when ignoring their aura components. Simply saying that other "support items" were rubbish kind of ignores that both items were an absolute priority for every team in every game without exception. That's not a healthy situation. I'm not 100% convinced on how "rubbish" some of the support items are anyway. Twin Shadows has some great utility throughout the game, Crucible is awesome in certain situations and I doubt the situational usefulness of Shard gets explored enough, particularly on supports that get value out of AP (Zyra and Karma stand out in this regard). The thing is, a teamwide aura/buff item is always going to be sick OP unless it is super weak or not efficient. They could have halved the values of Aegis and Bulwark and people still would have bought it because auras are strong, and are the best way for low priority champs to secretly give more gold to high priority champs. But just because people would buy shitty Aegis doesn't mean its good design, and for SoloQ it is definitely not fun for the people who need to get it for you. Its just like the jungle items, if they are not at least situationally good for laners, junglers will just sit on Stone, machete, or madreds all game. Just like if Shurelias is not worth it on Olaf, less supports will get it, or just look at how long WotA has languished. Its simple, because there are not any el-cheapo items (like, where is zhonyas active that builds from 2 ruby crystals and 100 gold?), therefore, because support items are expensive, they are either objectively good or bad. And everyone should repeat the following mantra: If its not optimal, its not viable. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:47 ticklishmusic wrote: Maybe I'll just main jungle or something, support itemization is terribad right now. Buyng wards and running around playing whack-a-ward is not my idea of playing a video game. I mean, I hate that aspect of Supports right now too, but playing play making champs like Thresh and Nami are still fun since they don't really need items to have an impact on the game. | ||
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Amethyst21
Canada7032 Posts
Wards/Oracles are so important in the pro game that if one side has an oracles and the other doesn't, it's a massive imbalance, which creates very little counterplay. Either you have to accept that every brush could contain 5 enemy team members or send your support back to get an oracles. Most choose the second. We talk about cost-efficient and item slot efficiency but there is no value you can assign to the ability to clear out/control vision - thus supports are being reduced to ward/oracle bitch because you either have oracles the ability to control vision, or you don't. There is also no item the opposing support can buy to counter oracles, outside of another oracles. There is no "I'll wait on oracles so I can get an item of equal value that will swing the game when the oracles expires." It doesn't (and can't) exist. As many have said - if there is a team/aura/traditional support item that is strong enough to be worth buying it will be worth buying quickly and thus it necessitates that they jungler or perhaps the top laner buy it because they have the income to do so. Like if they buff Mikael's for some reason and they make it insanely OP, its not going to end up being a support item - it will be a jungle item simply because the jungler can get it quickly. Unless RIOT finds a way to buff the income for supports they are going to end up broke because the items that a support get are mostly inconsequential. When is the last time a Shurlieas turned a pro game around? A twin shard? A support getting a Morellonomicon? The impact is so minimal its not worth shifting the farming balance around, so supports will have to be happy about being a warder/walking oracle for the foreseeable future. Not that there is anything wrong with that, really. Edit: Yango already said it better in the time it took me to type this. GG. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
The Spirit of Generosity Buids out of Cloth Armor+Fairy Charm+225g gives 20 armor, 5MP5, has an unique active: Demontration of Altruism Demonstration of Altruism gives 50 gold to the target and removes 50 gold from the user. Cooldown 10 seconds. This would also make support more mechanically demanding as you would have to remember to use the skill every 10 seconds. What do you think guys? | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:54 Amethyst21 wrote: I just don't know what RIOT wants out of its supports. Wards/Oracles are so important in the pro game that if one side has an oracles and the other doesn't, it's a massive imbalance, which creates very little counterplay. Either you have to accept that every brush could contain 5 enemy team members or send your support back to get an oracles. Most choose the second. We talk about cost-efficient and item slot efficiency but there is no value you can assign to the ability to clear out/control vision - thus supports are being reduced to ward/oracle bitch because you either have oracles the ability to control vision, or you don't. There is also no item the opposing support can buy to counter oracles, outside of another oracles. There is no "I'll wait on oracles so I can get an item of equal value that will swing the game when the oracles expires." It doesn't (and can't) exist. As many have said - if there is a team/aura/traditional support item that is strong enough to be worth buying it will be worth buying quickly and thus it necessitates that they jungler or perhaps the top laner buy it because they have the income to do so. Like if they buff Mikael's for some reason and they make it insanely OP, its not going to end up being a support item - it will be a jungle item simply because the jungler can get it quickly. Unless RIOT finds a way to buff the income for supports they are going to end up broke because the items that a support get are mostly inconsequential. When is the last time a Shurlieas turned a pro game around? A twin shard? A support getting a Morellonomicon? The impact is so minimal its not worth shifting the farming balance around, so supports will have to be happy about being a warder/walking oracle for the foreseeable future. Not that there is anything wrong with that, really. Edit: Yango already said it better in the time it took me to type this. GG. Fuck that, give me a ton of cheap dead end items with cool actives. Something you could get enough for while your Oracles is ticking away. Or just change the way vision works because the idea of cheap near infinite vision is the reason supports don't buy items. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:36 TheYango wrote: Empirically, "pretty good" has never been good enough for a support item to be bought over wards and oracles. The only items that ever actually stood out enough were stuff like pre-nerf Shurelya's that were just that good. I guess my point is that I think the items are actually a bit better than "pretty good" in certain situations. For example chalice/crucible is amazing on Sona against all-in comps with poke components, particularly if they have some magic damage. Varus/Leona for example gets shut down pretty hard by it. I could see Shard being useful as a Zyra with a fed Akali on her team that isn't building Rylai's (for whatever reason). I find the dismissal of Shard particularly confusing given that a slow field is, in a general sense, something that is generally pretty useful. We get way too hung up on the chasing/offensive component of the Twin Shadows active dropping off and forget that all game it retains usefulness in situations where you're warding/clearing vision or even kiting defensively. Not to mention there's a mantra about the "stat that shall not be named" being useless on supports when that's very clearly not the case, or at least not always the case. Thing is it's pretty much impossible for players to really apply any of this stuff when Locket is so incredibly strong. I should be able to be rewarded for building correctly for a situation, not punished because I didn't buy an item that's always better than every option. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:56 Scip wrote: I have a great idea for a new support item: The Spirit of Generosity Buids out of Cloth Armor+Fairy Charm+225g gives 20 armor, 5MP5, has an unique active: Demontration of Altruism Demonstration of Altruism gives 50 gold to the target and removes 50 gold from the user. Cooldown 10 seconds. This would also make support more mechanically demanding as you would have to remember to use the skill every 10 seconds. What do you think guys? I'd rather spend 2.5k. on zekes and give my whole team 4800 gold of stats total even if 400-800 of that gets slightly wasted. | ||
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phathom321
United States1730 Posts
Upon killing a unit, Twisted Fate rolls his dice, gaining anywhere from 1 to 6 bonus Gold. Naturally, Twisted Fate has a higher chance to receive a larger bonus Am I the only one confused by this? I read the first sentence and it seems like his passive is just changed to give him extra gold on cs instead of everyone, but the second sentence means that this 1-6 extra gold applies to his whole team? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 31 2013 12:04 phathom321 wrote: Am I the only one confused by this? I read the first sentence and it seems like his passive is just changed to give him extra gold on cs instead of everyone, but the second sentence means that this 1-6 extra gold applies to his whole team? nah it just means instead of having equal chance for 1 or 2 or 3 ect. its likelier you end up on the higher end than the lower end. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Amethyst21
Canada7032 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:58 onlywonderboy wrote: Fuck that, give me a ton of cheap dead end items with cool actives. Something you could get enough for while your Oracles is ticking away. Or just change the way vision works because the idea of cheap near infinite vision is the reason supports don't buy items. Yeah I think vision changes are the way to go, certainly, but I don't have an intelligent suggestion as to how to change it that doesn't create stagnant gameplay. This is why I'm a librarian. Books are so much easier... | ||
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dottycakes
Canada548 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:56 Scip wrote: I have a great idea for a new support item: The Spirit of Generosity Buids out of Cloth Armor+Fairy Charm+225g gives 20 armor, 5MP5, has an unique active: Demontration of Altruism Demonstration of Altruism gives 50 gold to the target and removes 50 gold from the user. Cooldown 10 seconds. This would also make support more mechanically demanding as you would have to remember to use the skill every 10 seconds. What do you think guys? It's hard to tell if this is supposed to be a joke or not... | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 31 2013 12:04 phathom321 wrote: Am I the only one confused by this? I read the first sentence and it seems like his passive is just changed to give him extra gold on cs instead of everyone, but the second sentence means that this 1-6 extra gold applies to his whole team? It just means TF is more likely to get one of the higher gold value because I guess he's a lucky guy? Still just applies to him. | ||
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Neverhood
United States5388 Posts
On July 31 2013 12:04 phathom321 wrote: Am I the only one confused by this? I read the first sentence and it seems like his passive is just changed to give him extra gold on cs instead of everyone, but the second sentence means that this 1-6 extra gold applies to his whole team? Just means the percentages are skewed towards the larger numbers so he has a higher chance of getting an extra 5 or 6g per kill | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Don't remember where I read that. | ||
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phathom321
United States1730 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:58 onlywonderboy wrote: Fuck that, give me a ton of cheap dead end items with cool actives. Something you could get enough for while your Oracles is ticking away. Or just change the way vision works because the idea of cheap near infinite vision is the reason supports don't buy items. I'd say powerful consumables, or Doran's-style (cheap ad powerful but slot inefficient) items that upgrade only later on for a really high cost (perhaps with multiple build paths, like what they want to do with Viktor's Hexcore but haven't programmed yet). It's frustrating. Yes its fun having a sick peel or sick engage or whatever, but when your total effectiveness is approximately equal to your CC plus your number of wards, there's a problem. Items do NOTHING for you-- what support itemization is right now, at best, is an underfarmed tank or an AP carry missing an arm and 80% AP ratios with a tad more CC. Might as well just turn the courier from DOTA into a new support champ. New idea: Item that gives a support gold based on how many wards he has. For every ward that successfully expires (is not killed), he gains 100 gold. We can call it golden eye. Or maybe the number of expired wards goes to a counter which give stats. I don't know. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
They don't even need TONS of HP. Melee supports generally have pretty high resists, which synergize well with +HP items (Taric/Thresh get a lot of free armor, Leona is a monster of resists, Alistar has his ult for %reduction) and ranged supports just need "enough HP" so that you aren't a trivial free kill (when you aren't out of position.) Drop some of the superfluous stats off Shurelya's, and drop its combine cost. Old locket was one of the few items I could ever justify on support, and this new one is such cost-inefficient garbage I doubt I'll get it on ANY champ except vs. certain team compositions with a lot of aoe (in which case it's still too expensive for a support to buy, just like Zeke's.) Put HP/10%CDR on Shard of True Ice (Or Twin Shadows) instead of AP (Kindlegem instead of Kage's) and it'll see some use too, without being this oppressive "invisible monster power" that is the late Runic Bulwark. ~1500 gold Kindlegem + Mana Manip + Combine cost Active slowy aura 250 HP 10% CDR 5 MP5 "Mana Warp" Aura | ||
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