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On July 31 2013 09:15 TheYango wrote:
Locket/Aegis are just the next in line in a long history of nerfing defensive/supportive items. After Zeke's, Shurelya's, Frozen Heart, WotA, Abyssal, etc. going all the way back to Soul Shroud.
Riot either needs to get a clue on how to design supportive items that people will use, or accept that they need to tune supportive items to the power level of those pre-nerfed items for them to be practical.
Are you saying that this Aegis/Locket change is BAD now? Seriously?
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United States47024 Posts
I've been saying it's bad since it was on PBE, lol.
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Now that Bulwark is removed pro junglers can start buying Sightstone so they don't forget they are position 4 .
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Most of us have been saying it's bad since it first came as far as I can tell, can't remember anyone defending it apart from the occasional "yeah we won't get forced to buy it anymore".
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FINALLY A NEW ICON FOR THORNMAIL.
most important change imo
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United States47024 Posts
I can think of a few people who were enormously in favor of the change.
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On July 31 2013 09:42 TheYango wrote:
I've been saying it's bad since it was on PBE, lol.
Why is the new Aegis/Locket bad now?
Or are you saying that the way it is now is bad because its too good?
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United States47024 Posts
Not that the item is bad, but that the change doesn't improve the game, and is arguably a detriment to it.
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Oh god if its the same icons as on PBE I'm going to be really confused playing this game.
Why did randuins get buffed? Wasn't it already one of the most cost efficient single slot defensive items in the game? Is it just trying to complement the BV buff?
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On July 31 2013 10:00 TheYango wrote:
Not that the item is bad, but that the change doesn't improve the game, and is arguably a detriment to it.
Seriously? Explain how it's a detriment to the game.
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On July 31 2013 09:37 TheYango wrote:
On a different note, I think the tower changes are the most convoluted solution to this early pushing thing they could have possibly come up with.
I don't understand why they didn't just revert the tower priority AI change they made a while back, because reverting that would be far less convoluted and do more to address the problem.
It's very obviously a hamfisted change to address gameplay that they do not like. It's also geared exclusively at the very top skill levels. It's a change motivated by emotion and not reason.
They need to let the pro scene evolve on its own or embrace the meta. I'm very upset at how forced this is.
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United States47024 Posts
It doesn't address the problem that nerfing the items was meant to address (support item diversity--other support items still suck so people will still just buy Aegis), and the two items were the only supportive items that were actually compelling enough to have role flexibility beyond just the jungler and support buying them.
On July 31 2013 10:05 Phunkapotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 09:37 TheYango wrote:
On a different note, I think the tower changes are the most convoluted solution to this early pushing thing they could have possibly come up with.
I don't understand why they didn't just revert the tower priority AI change they made a while back, because reverting that would be far less convoluted and do more to address the problem. It's very obviously a hamfisted change to address gameplay that they do not like. It's also geared exclusively at the very top skill levels. It's a change motivated by emotion and not reason. They need to let the pro scene evolve on its own or embrace the meta. I'm very upset at how forced this is.
If they took a step back and actually looked at things carefully they would realize they missed the easiest, most sensible, and most un-intrusive way to address 1v2 lanes:
Release Notes v1.0.0.107
- Solo lanes will see a slight reduction in their experience gain. Junglers and Dual lanes will be unaffected.
A change going all the way back to season 1, that made champions in a dual lane gain slightly more total XP from lane creeps dying than a solo champion. The change is a relic from when Riot wanted 2-1-2 laning to be viable and for jungling to be optional. They've long since abandoned that idea, so there's not really a reason for it to remain in the game anymore. A lot of newer players don't even know this exists, and it's not even relevant except in the case of 1v2 lanes.
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On July 31 2013 10:06 TheYango wrote:
It doesn't address the problem that nerfing the items was meant to address (support item diversity--other support items still suck so people will still just buy Aegis), and the two items were the only supportive items that were actually compelling enough to have role flexibility beyond just the jungler and support buying them.
Bulwark+Locket pre patch was 4800 gold. The new Locket is 2600. Presuming that the support is going to be buying it, how does giving them another 1200 gold to spend on other items not increase item diversity?
If the jungler is going to buy them, how does giving them 1200 more gold not increase item diversity?
How is the new Locket less compelling than the old Aegis to other roles?
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Just a continuation from the last thread:
Statements like this blow my mind whole. Irelia vs Jax I can understand because of how important the junglers are. Fiora vs Jax should never, ever be lost by the Jax. I've had games where I've fed 5-6 kills because their jungler camped the ever living crap out of me with their mid and STILL stomped a Fiora in lane because what the hell can she do to Jax after a point. You have to be so mind numbingly far behind to lose this as Jax if you have any idea how he works at all. Every time I get this matchup the enemy jungler ends up whining because they dedicated so many resources, helped their top get kills, and their top is still absolutely useless.
And the opposite experience is true for me (in that I crush Jax, force his jungler to prop him up top, and proceed to carry with a massive gold lead, and done so with both chars). Fiora can go aggressive on Jax starting level 1 with a point in W: What's Jax going to do? Return an AA? Use counterstrike and burn a large chunk of mana on top of wasting the only skill that keeps Fiora from eating him alive early? At level 2, Fiora can zone Jax out of the minion wave simply by autoing him when he closes to the minion wave, or go for a kill with a Red Pot (or significantly damage him even without it). If Jax uses a counterstrike, an 18s cd early means Fiora zones him from the wave, since she can block return AA and deals significantly more damage pre-6 than Jax, and as the lane progresses, a low CD on W means that Fiora can block significant portions of Jax's burst in extended fights (W max is significantly better in extended, AA-oriented brawls top than Q max Fiora). Assuming Fiora hasn't snowballed, Jax begins to win the lane post-6 as base damages come in (and the inability of W to block some of the on-hits <_<; ), but if the Fiora was able to snowball an advantage pre-6 (where Fiora has a significant advantage), then Jax will have a bad time of it, and Fiora snowballs like all hell (and anti-snowballs if she's set back).
I've spectated enough games to notice that alot of Fioras don't skill correctly for this matchup (Q max over W max, which is useful vs range champs or in mid lane, but not in a top lane AA slugfest, where W max blocks more damage and does more damage), nor itemize correctly against enemy purchases (early penetration against armor stack).
The matchup is favored to Jax post-6 assuming he isn't stomped early, or gets early jungle pressure and sets Fiora back.
Again, matchup knowledge and champion familiarity are key to such skill matchups as Fiora/Irelia vs Jax. They're theoretically and realistically favored to him, but if the Jax is unfamiliar with the matchup (and the Fiora/Irelia player is), then Jax can and will lose, hard (because both Irelia and Fiora can snowball the lane). Now, if that isn't true, Jax is favored to win the lane but Irelia/Fiora aren't autolose like you claim. Something like 6-4 in Jax's favor, depending on the jungler.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 31 2013 10:12 Ketara wrote:
Bulwark+Locket pre patch was 4800 gold. The new Locket is 2600. Presuming that the support is going to be buying it, how does giving them another 1200 gold to spend on other items not increase item diversity?
Because it wasn't necessary for one champ to get both items. Jungler or Top got Bulwark, some combination of Jungler, Top, or Support got Locket.
Now it shoves the burden onto one champ, which will be the jungler. The support will just buy more wards/basic items because there's still nothing else compelling enough to actually buy, else they'd already be buying them in the occasional games where jungler and top covered Bulwark+Locket pre-patch.
On July 31 2013 10:12 Ketara wrote:
How is the new Locket less compelling than the old Aegis to other roles?
Weaker self-stat efficiency (more relevant to the carry roles who fundamentally itemize more selfishly), weaker in multiples than old Locket.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 31 2013 10:12 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 10:06 TheYango wrote:
It doesn't address the problem that nerfing the items was meant to address (support item diversity--other support items still suck so people will still just buy Aegis), and the two items were the only supportive items that were actually compelling enough to have role flexibility beyond just the jungler and support buying them. Bulwark+Locket pre patch was 4800 gold. The new Locket is 2600. Presuming that the support is going to be buying it, how does giving them another 1200 gold to spend on other items not increase item diversity? If the jungler is going to buy them, how does giving them 1200 more gold not increase item diversity? How is the new Locket less compelling than the old Aegis to other roles?
Because a support was never building both anyway. The Jungler usually picked up Aegis/Bulwark and the Support got Locket. What am I gonna buy now? Shard of True Ice or Twin Shadows? We've already talked about why those items aren't that great. Fuck it, I'll just play like the pros and just buy wards for days at this point.
Edit: I think Junglers will get getting the new Locket standard.
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On July 31 2013 10:06 TheYango wrote:If they took a step back and actually looked at things carefully they would realize they missed the easiest, most sensible, and most un-intrusive way to address 1v2 lanes: Show nested quote +Release Notes v1.0.0.107
- Solo lanes will see a slight reduction in their experience gain. Junglers and Dual lanes will be unaffected. A change going all the way back to season 1, that made champions in a dual lane gain slightly more total XP from lane creeps dying than a solo champion. The change is a relic from when Riot wanted 2-1-2 laning to be viable and for jungling to be optional. They've long since abandoned that idea, so there's not really a reason for it to remain in the game anymore. A lot of newer players don't even know this exists, and it's not even relevant except in the case of 1v2 lanes.
There was an AMA on French forums with Scarizard earlier in the day, I asked him about this and he said : "yes it can be a solution, but we're not yet sure it's the best way to do it".
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On July 31 2013 10:12 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 10:06 TheYango wrote:
It doesn't address the problem that nerfing the items was meant to address (support item diversity--other support items still suck so people will still just buy Aegis), and the two items were the only supportive items that were actually compelling enough to have role flexibility beyond just the jungler and support buying them. Bulwark+Locket pre patch was 4800 gold. The new Locket is 2600. Presuming that the support is going to be buying it, how does giving them another 1200 gold to spend on other items not increase item diversity? If the jungler is going to buy them, how does giving them 1200 more gold not increase item diversity? How is the new Locket less compelling than the old Aegis to other roles?
Rule of thumb for LoL: If an item is not good enough to be bought on priority champ, buying it is super boring.
On July 31 2013 10:17 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 10:15 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 31 2013 10:12 Ketara wrote:On July 31 2013 10:06 TheYango wrote:
It doesn't address the problem that nerfing the items was meant to address (support item diversity--other support items still suck so people will still just buy Aegis), and the two items were the only supportive items that were actually compelling enough to have role flexibility beyond just the jungler and support buying them. Bulwark+Locket pre patch was 4800 gold. The new Locket is 2600. Presuming that the support is going to be buying it, how does giving them another 1200 gold to spend on other items not increase item diversity? If the jungler is going to buy them, how does giving them 1200 more gold not increase item diversity? How is the new Locket less compelling than the old Aegis to other roles? Because a support was never building both anyway. The Jungler usually picked up Aegis/Bulwark and the Support got Locket. What am I gonna buy now? Shard of True Ice or Twin Shadows? We've already talked about why those items aren't that great. Fuck it, I'll just play like the pros and just buy wards for days at this point. Edit: I think Junglers will get getting the new Locket standard. That's good. That's a step in the right direction. Next step will be them making Shard of True Ice and Twin Shadows not terrible. I just can't anymore with you guys. All you do is bitch.
There is no evidence of your 2nd claim.
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On July 31 2013 10:15 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 10:12 Ketara wrote:On July 31 2013 10:06 TheYango wrote:
It doesn't address the problem that nerfing the items was meant to address (support item diversity--other support items still suck so people will still just buy Aegis), and the two items were the only supportive items that were actually compelling enough to have role flexibility beyond just the jungler and support buying them. Bulwark+Locket pre patch was 4800 gold. The new Locket is 2600. Presuming that the support is going to be buying it, how does giving them another 1200 gold to spend on other items not increase item diversity? If the jungler is going to buy them, how does giving them 1200 more gold not increase item diversity? How is the new Locket less compelling than the old Aegis to other roles? Because a support was never building both anyway. The Jungler usually picked up Aegis/Bulwark and the Support got Locket. What am I gonna buy now? Shard of True Ice or Twin Shadows? We've already talked about why those items aren't that great. Fuck it, I'll just play like the pros and just buy wards for days at this point. Edit: I think Junglers will get getting the new Locket standard.
That's good. That's a step in the right direction. Next step will be them making Shard of True Ice and Twin Shadows not terrible.
I just can't anymore with you guys. All you do is bitch.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 31 2013 10:17 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 10:15 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 31 2013 10:12 Ketara wrote:On July 31 2013 10:06 TheYango wrote:
It doesn't address the problem that nerfing the items was meant to address (support item diversity--other support items still suck so people will still just buy Aegis), and the two items were the only supportive items that were actually compelling enough to have role flexibility beyond just the jungler and support buying them. Bulwark+Locket pre patch was 4800 gold. The new Locket is 2600. Presuming that the support is going to be buying it, how does giving them another 1200 gold to spend on other items not increase item diversity? If the jungler is going to buy them, how does giving them 1200 more gold not increase item diversity? How is the new Locket less compelling than the old Aegis to other roles? Because a support was never building both anyway. The Jungler usually picked up Aegis/Bulwark and the Support got Locket. What am I gonna buy now? Shard of True Ice or Twin Shadows? We've already talked about why those items aren't that great. Fuck it, I'll just play like the pros and just buy wards for days at this point. Edit: I think Junglers will get getting the new Locket standard. That's good. That's a step in the right direction. Next step will be them making Shard of True Ice and Twin Shadows not terrible. I just can't anymore with you guys. All you do is bitch.
Sorry we don't like the change. We're allowed to hate it just like you're allowed to like it. I just don't have faith that Riot is going to buff those Support items, or at least not in a way that actually makes them appealing for Supports to buy.
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EPT
