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On August 05 2013 10:24 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:17 ticklishmusic wrote:
Well, look at it this way: (I'm doing the math partially for my own benefit, if I make any egregious mistakes its cuz I slept on a friend's floor last night so I could get a ride to church/ grocery shopping)
Assume we have a squishy with 2K hp (we'll ignore armor because it applies equally to both items, but it would be approximately 70 for 58% damage reduction at level 18). Bork will do 15% of current HP (we will assume its essentially max) for Zed with its active, for approximately 300 damage. We can ignore the extra damage from death mark because it applies equally to all damage. Same thing goes for his passive proc.
Therefore to do the same damage as Bork, Hydra will need to do 300 damage, e.g. Zed will need to have 300 AD. Because of his E passive ( OP free +.25% AD), that's actually going to be 240. With 110 damage at lvl 18, that means Zed will need 130 AD more, or rather after Hydra's 75 AD, he needs 55 more AD to equal Bork's damage. This discounts runes and masteries, as well as the fact Bork will continue to do 5% per auto. You're skipping SO MANY THINGS here. You skipping the fact that the +50 AD on hydra applies to the AD ratios on QER, you skipped the additional autos that BORK does from increased AS (and increased stickiness). It's more than JUST the damage from the active. For hydra to really be good on zed, you basically need to be facing people who don't move when you ult them.
The range on the BOTRK active is also a huge consideration that you can't really reflect in numbers - and that range makes it obscenely strong. The flexibility is amazing; use it as a gap closer, a ranged execute, part of your rotation, a peeling tool, the options that it provides beyond additional damage in melee range is what makes it so much better than hydra on Zed.
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On August 05 2013 10:02 Alaric wrote:Was watching TI3 and the DotA 2 wiki for the heroes which I didn't know what their kits were, most notably Alchemist who I never understood how he was supposed to carry. His ult is actually prob. what inspired Singed's initial form: base attack speed buff (to make it short it scales insanely because imagine a spell that doubles the %AS you get from any source (items, buffs, etc.)), MS buff, flat increase of mana and health regen. It's also long duration, short cooldown, imagine pre-nerf Mundo ult. Which made me think about old designs like Mundo himself. How stacked his kit is. How strong he could be lategame. But because of the way LoL items work, you could never see Mundo play a carry role. Which makes me kinda sad. T_T Mundo, Olaf, Jax have carry potential, and their kits are more interesting/diversified than most of the marksmen, but itemisation won't ever let them try their hand at it. Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:01 wei2coolman wrote:
BT is pretty good on talon imo; he doesn't really need the extra clear from Hydra; considering how well he clears with rakes. Talon has a 4 bonus AD ratio in his kit (well, there's potentially a bit more through autos, his passive and cutthroat, but the laters are %amp. anyway), which means that with BT giving up to 25 more AD, if Tiamat's active lets you inflict 1 total AD damage more compared to BT, then Tiamat's better as long as you have 100 total AD, which you should with base AD and Tiamat alone. Thus, unless you for some reason can't use Tiamat's active in your full combo, it always outperforms BT for Talon. Not enough AD scaling.
The dota event is interesting. I don't understand the game and the writeups are basic, but it's nice to see another moba that big.
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The viewers guide was lacking a lot to say the least.
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this is like the 4th time on this forum, hydra vs Bork math for zed ult has been done. Hydra always wins assuming they don't have a way to escape your E slow (mobility/jump ability), the reason people like Bork is the sticking power, the damage just does not stand up to hydra.
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On August 05 2013 10:47 Slusher wrote:
this is like the 4th time on this forum, hydra vs Bork math for zed ult has been done. Hydra always wins assuming they don't have a way to escape your E slow (mobility/jump ability), the reason people like Bork is the sticking power, the damage just does not stand up to hydra.
How much damage do you do when you're out of range of all of your abilities? 
A lot of it comes down to positioning, but one can never underestimate speed when considering a fight. The faster champ can decide if it's a fight to the death or not!
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where did I ignore the importance of Bork slow? also it's not like Zed doesn't have a base slow in his kit, if you hit E as soon as it starts the shadow created by the ult is in range.
people just need to get over they're hangups with bork Zed, it's good, but if the heros you are facing don't have non flash options to disengage it's not that good.
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You didn't, my point is that the slow is probably the most important factor when considering botrk on anyone. Saying all you need to consider from the botrk is the slow is like saying that all you need to consider about IE is the increased crit damage.
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that would be a relevant point if Zed didn't have a 2 gap closers and a slow in his kit pre items.
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It probably comes for a big part from my ignorance of the game's workings, but DotA seems to have much more flexibility in lane assignments and team compositions than LoL, which creates a lot more room for thought and theorycrafting, which I find pretty interesting.
On the other hand, I sometimes think about LoL stuff that I know isn't optimal (like hybrid (as in offensive/defensive) builds to try and get a carry-y Mundo or Diana) and there's a bunch of time to be consumed like this too. So if I actually knew shit about DotA the gap prob wouldn't seem to wide to me. >_>
On August 05 2013 10:25 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 09:40 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2013 09:23 Alaric wrote:
I wondered if BotRK would be nice on Talon for the same reasons This was what I was hoping the conversation would angle towards. I'm a little suspicious of the tendency to auto-buy hydra on certain heroes with botrk available and questionably balanced. For Talon: So his AD modification on this combo is: 2.00(two autos) + 1.30 (Q) + 1.20 (W) + .75 (R) all times 1.15 for his E damage modification. Total of 5.25 x1.15 = 6.0375 So in this combo he gets the following bonus damage from these items: Hydra: 452.8125 BotRK: 150.9375 LW: 241.5 So basically, in order for BotRK to outdamage Hydra in this situation, its active + the 2 passive hits have to do 300 more damage than the Hydra active, which is probably doing at least 150-200 damage depending on your level and what other items you have. I don't think I need to do any math to show that the target would need at least 3k health for that to be true, and if you're Talon why are you comboing a guy with 3k health.
You're considering Talon's burst with 15% amplification which you aren't applying to BotRK, though. The active alone would deal 450 damage on a 2600 HP target under this situation, and then you get some more damage from the passive, for example, so the threshold isn't as high as you say.
I still don't think it's worth it though, if only because BotRK doesn't give you waveclear. Zed can use WEQ to one-shot a wave with fairly low AD thanks to E's cd and good total scaling (base damage from 2 spells + 1.4 bonus AD scaling even without the mimicked shuriken), while Talon really only has Rake. To be able to roam comfortably, you'd want a bunch of early AD (or something like Tiamat) so that Rake can at least one shot the caster minions, and after cutlass you'd hit a lull.
Plus, as mentioned, Noxian Diplomacy's aa reset and the fact that the on-hit damage (30-150 + 0.3 bonus AD) affects towers (and the 4s cd at max level) make it not rely as much on AS to kill towers or single opponents.
(Which, incidentally, makes me wonder if he actually loses damage on the ability since the DoT runs on 6s while the cd gets naturally shorter than that. It's probably a loss rather than rolled up like Draven's original passive.)
Also Hydra makes you a better duelist than BT if you can draw the fight near a creep wave or jungle camp, if only for the additional healing you get. Picture Pantheon's sustain through last hits when his E passive lets him crit low HP enemies, doubling his lifesteal in this situation.
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Do people even get BT anymore on melee champs? It doesnt seem to feel any niche for them
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On August 05 2013 10:40 wei2coolman wrote:
The viewers guide was lacking a lot to say the least.
if you have any question about dota or games in ti3, you can join #tl.dota2 and we'll be happy to answer your questions !
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On August 05 2013 11:02 jaybrundage wrote:
Do people even get BT anymore on melee champs? It doesnt seem to feel any niche for them
BT on Talon so you can kill waves with Rake rather than popping Hydra if they have someone who can punish you for farming in melee range?
I still see BT on Riven sometimes.
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Riven is petty much the only one that still makes sense. and Hydra is still really close (possibly better)
if it weren't for the fact that she had a defensive steroid scaling off of AD she'd prefer Hydra also.
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BT is still the best "one-off" burst item, in that till people get enough armour that LW becomes better, its raw AD will give the most damage to a single autoattack/AD-scaling ability cast. But it's awkward to build, and Tiamat's active lets it often outdamage BT in longer trades.
Pantheon must be one of the few melee champs who don't necessarily benefit from it from a fighting PoV, but that's because he doesn't need to get in melee range to ue his primary nuke, and HSS also has range on top of being channeled, so once he commits (esp. against an isolated target so noone can interrupt HSS) he can use it, but he'll avoid simply being in range otherwise.
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On August 05 2013 11:05 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:40 wei2coolman wrote:
The viewers guide was lacking a lot to say the least. if you have any question about dota or games in ti3, you can join #tl.dota2 and we'll be happy to answer your questions !
I have a good enough grasp of dota 2 to enjoy watching it. I feel that the viewers guide was treating the readers as complete retards.
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I mean you have to keep in mind you do play a moba, as much as dota fans like to pretend that doesn't help you, it does.
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On August 05 2013 11:32 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 11:05 Erasme wrote:On August 05 2013 10:40 wei2coolman wrote:
The viewers guide was lacking a lot to say the least. if you have any question about dota or games in ti3, you can join #tl.dota2 and we'll be happy to answer your questions ! I have a good enough grasp of dota 2 to enjoy watching it. I feel that the viewers guide was treating the readers as complete retards.
It's just in case you wish to go further into dota
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On August 05 2013 10:47 Slusher wrote:
this is like the 4th time on this forum, hydra vs Bork math for zed ult has been done. Hydra always wins assuming they don't have a way to escape your E slow (mobility/jump ability), the reason people like Bork is the sticking power, the damage just does not stand up to hydra.
When used with Back-ended burst, %currenthealth damage from autos are deceptively nice.
Assuming you are fighting 2k health target with 33 post-ARPen armor (25% damage reduction, yay picking easy numbers.) and you're level 11 and you hit them with R, 1 E, activation, Q shurikens from 2 shadows, passive, and 2 or 3 auto attacks (3 for bork, 2 for hydra):
Items: Brutalizer, either BORK or Hydra
Skills: 5Q, 3E, 2R, 1W, +5% AD.
+20 AD from runes/masteries (we'll assume some are ARpen)
84 base AD at level 11.
104 AD without items. +25 from brutalizer, +75 from hydra OR 25 from BORK for either 159 or 204, +5% gives 166 or 214.
1230 BORK build has 82 bonus AD. Hydra build has 130.
BORK: R -> (Ignite) -> Auto (166+82) 182 dmg -> Activate (300) 225 dmg-> E (120+65) 138 dmg->Auto (166+58) 168 dmg -> Q (235+82 + 117+41) 356 dmg ->
passive proc - target has less than 50% health remaining.
Auto (166+37.16+160 magic damage ~ 110 post-reduction damage = 262 damage
1333 damage done so far, plus 3 seconds worth of ignite = .75*270 = 1535 damage
R pops for 166*0.75+0.35*1535 = 661.75 damage.
Total damage done by ulti combo = 2196 damage. (1 tick of ignite remaining for about 68 damage)
Hydra:
R -> (Ignite) -> Activate (214) 160.5 -> Auto (214) 160.5 -> E (120+104) 168 -> Q (235+130+117+65) 410 -> passive-powered-auto (214 + ~110postreduction)
1169 damage done so far + 3 ticks of ignite = 1371 damage
R pops for 214*0.75 (160.5) + 0.35*1371 (480) damage.
Total = 2010 damage (also 68 damage left from ignite.)
What's that about Hydra doing more damage, again? It's also a bit dicey whether, when you get the second Hydra-auto, if the target will actually be below 50% for your passive.
When you add more AD, yes, the hydra active gets a bit better, but since the next damage item is almost certainly last whisper which also gives armor pen for the passive/active of BORK, BORK will stay in the lead for a very long time. And that's not even considering targets with higher health than that.
I agree with Hydra on Talon, though. Zed has infinity waveclear, so he doesn't benefit from that part of Hydra.
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On August 05 2013 11:34 Slusher wrote:
I mean you have to keep in mind you do play a moba, as much as dota fans like to pretend that doesn't help you, it does.
The articles felt all over the place, and I feel they left a lot of other key items out of it. Basic strategy stuff like creep pull and stuff, should have been highlighted. A list of "popular/core champs" to look out for would have been nice as well. They did do a good job with team summaries though.
Please include the t in BotRK.
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pretty favorable numbers considering you have me ulting a melee hero with a giant belt item at level 11 with only a hydra completed.
idk I'm used to people phonetically pronouncing it "Bork blade" so I don't like the T >.>
p.s. I'm not saying it's bad on Zed, I'm saying hydra is better in at least ~50% of your Zed games and you should give it a thought. for instance in your scenario, both score the kill despite me supposedly ulting a less than favorable target.
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EPT
