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On August 05 2013 11:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 11:34 Slusher wrote:
I mean you have to keep in mind you do play a moba, as much as dota fans like to pretend that doesn't help you, it does. The articles felt all over the place, and I feel they left a lot of other key items out of it. Basic strategy stuff like creep pull and stuff, should have been highlighted. A list of "popular/core champs" to look out for would have been nice as well. They did do a good job with team summaries though. Please include the t in BotRK.
Bork bork bork.
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I went and read the article and not sure what they could have done better, I thought it was ok for what it is, a beginners guide to watching the game. I can't really put myself in the shoes of someone who has never played or watched dota 2 before so not sure what they would expand on or expand less on.
I really am upset about not having a ticket for the finals next weekend, I'm so close geographically, but so far away from being able to go. QQ
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On August 05 2013 11:52 BlueBird. wrote:
I went and read the article and not sure what they could have done better, I thought it was ok for what it is, a beginners guide to watching the game. I can't really put myself in the shoes of someone who has never played or watched dota 2 before so not sure what they would expand on or expand less on.
I really am upset about not having a ticket for the finals next weekend, I'm so close geographically, but so far away from being able to go. QQ
I know, its a 20 minute walk from my apartment.....no ticket. QQ.
League related note, finally out of Silver!! But my little brother carried my last promo game so hard, I'm never going to hear the end of it....
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On August 05 2013 11:49 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 11:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 05 2013 11:34 Slusher wrote:
I mean you have to keep in mind you do play a moba, as much as dota fans like to pretend that doesn't help you, it does. The articles felt all over the place, and I feel they left a lot of other key items out of it. Basic strategy stuff like creep pull and stuff, should have been highlighted. A list of "popular/core champs" to look out for would have been nice as well. They did do a good job with team summaries though. Please include the t in BotRK. Bork bork bork.
T belongs in bork like T belongs in rofl.
Not at all.
(Done for comedy, I type botrk because I never say "bork" I either say the whole name or just blade for short)
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United States23745 Posts
On August 05 2013 12:16 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 11:49 sylverfyre wrote:On August 05 2013 11:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 05 2013 11:34 Slusher wrote:
I mean you have to keep in mind you do play a moba, as much as dota fans like to pretend that doesn't help you, it does. The articles felt all over the place, and I feel they left a lot of other key items out of it. Basic strategy stuff like creep pull and stuff, should have been highlighted. A list of "popular/core champs" to look out for would have been nice as well. They did do a good job with team summaries though. Please include the t in BotRK. Bork bork bork. T belongs in bork like T belongs in rofl. Not at all. (Done for comedy, I type botrk because I never say "bork" I either say the whole name or just blade for short)
I'm the exact opposite, always call it bork out loud lol.
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On August 05 2013 12:16 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 11:49 sylverfyre wrote:On August 05 2013 11:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 05 2013 11:34 Slusher wrote:
I mean you have to keep in mind you do play a moba, as much as dota fans like to pretend that doesn't help you, it does. The articles felt all over the place, and I feel they left a lot of other key items out of it. Basic strategy stuff like creep pull and stuff, should have been highlighted. A list of "popular/core champs" to look out for would have been nice as well. They did do a good job with team summaries though. Please include the t in BotRK. Bork bork bork. T belongs in bork like T belongs in rofl. Not at all. (Done for comedy, I type botrk because I never say "bork" I either say the whole name or just blade for short)
But ao"t"l.....
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If you don't already I suggest you convert, theres something so accurate about saying "he borked that guy" after vayne 1v1s someone with a Bork blade active ambush.
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Maybe for me it's because I've used Björk (after the singer) to mean fucked up, ie, I meant to towerdive but I Björked that up, but right now I'm seeing a similarity with the usage of the word after seeing your example, with a word that sounds so similar.
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On August 05 2013 12:31 Zdrastochye wrote:
Maybe for me it's because I've used Björk (after the singer) to mean fucked up, ie, I meant to towerdive but I Björked that up, but right now I'm seeing a similarity with the usage of the word after seeing your example, with a word that sounds so similar.
thats fucked up man, Hyperballad #1
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On August 05 2013 12:21 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 12:16 Zdrastochye wrote:On August 05 2013 11:49 sylverfyre wrote:On August 05 2013 11:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 05 2013 11:34 Slusher wrote:
I mean you have to keep in mind you do play a moba, as much as dota fans like to pretend that doesn't help you, it does. The articles felt all over the place, and I feel they left a lot of other key items out of it. Basic strategy stuff like creep pull and stuff, should have been highlighted. A list of "popular/core champs" to look out for would have been nice as well. They did do a good job with team summaries though. Please include the t in BotRK. Bork bork bork. T belongs in bork like T belongs in rofl. Not at all. (Done for comedy, I type botrk because I never say "bork" I either say the whole name or just blade for short) I'm the exact opposite, always call it bork out loud lol.
yea I either call it by the whole name or bork.
bork sounds better.
bork.
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I use "blade" and "bladed" for the active. Bork just sounds silly.
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On August 05 2013 11:39 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:47 Slusher wrote:
this is like the 4th time on this forum, hydra vs Bork math for zed ult has been done. Hydra always wins assuming they don't have a way to escape your E slow (mobility/jump ability), the reason people like Bork is the sticking power, the damage just does not stand up to hydra. When used with Back-ended burst, %currenthealth damage from autos are deceptively nice. Assuming you are fighting 2k health target with 33 post-ARPen armor (25% damage reduction, yay picking easy numbers.) and you're level 11 and you hit them with R, 1 E, activation, Q shurikens from 2 shadows, passive, and 2 or 3 auto attacks (3 for bork, 2 for hydra): Items: Brutalizer, either BORK or Hydra Skills: 5Q, 3E, 2R, 1W, +5% AD. +20 AD from runes/masteries (we'll assume some are ARpen) 84 base AD at level 11. 104 AD without items. +25 from brutalizer, +75 from hydra OR 25 from BORK for either 159 or 204, +5% gives 166 or 214. 1230 BORK build has 82 bonus AD. Hydra build has 130. BORK: R -> (Ignite) -> Auto (166+82) 182 dmg -> Activate (300) 225 dmg-> E (120+65) 138 dmg->Auto (166+58) 168 dmg -> Q (235+82 + 117+41) 356 dmg -> passive proc - target has less than 50% health remaining.Auto (166+37.16+160 magic damage ~ 110 post-reduction damage = 262 damage 1333 damage done so far, plus 3 seconds worth of ignite = .75*270 = 1535 damage R pops for 166*0.75+0.35*1535 = 661.75 damage. Total damage done by ulti combo = 2196 damage. (1 tick of ignite remaining for about 68 damage)Hydra: R -> (Ignite) -> Activate (214) 160.5 -> Auto (214) 160.5 -> E (120+104) 168 -> Q (235+130+117+65) 410 -> passive-powered-auto (214 + ~110postreduction) 1169 damage done so far + 3 ticks of ignite = 1371 damage R pops for 214*0.75 (160.5) + 0.35*1371 (480) damage. Total = 2010 damage (also 68 damage left from ignite.)What's that about Hydra doing more damage, again? It's also a bit dicey whether, when you get the second Hydra-auto, if the target will actually be below 50% for your passive. When you add more AD, yes, the hydra active gets a bit better, but since the next damage item is almost certainly last whisper which also gives armor pen for the passive/active of BORK, BORK will stay in the lead for a very long time. And that's not even considering targets with higher health than that. I agree with Hydra on Talon, though. Zed has infinity waveclear, so he doesn't benefit from that part of Hydra.
Why is it that in your BotRK math you have Zed doing 3 autos, but in your Hydra math you only have him doing 2?
Also, I'd add up your stuff again.
For your Hydra stuff you have 160.5 + 160.5 + 168 + 410 + 214 + 110 = 1169, when it = 1223.
Similar simple math errors seem to be all over the BotRK section too.
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they should try to make sure these items have good shorthand. Items with active abilities should also have verb names. In MTG they make sure spot removal spells these days don't force you to say stupid shit like "I dregs your lion."
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On August 05 2013 12:41 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2013 11:39 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:47 Slusher wrote:
this is like the 4th time on this forum, hydra vs Bork math for zed ult has been done. Hydra always wins assuming they don't have a way to escape your E slow (mobility/jump ability), the reason people like Bork is the sticking power, the damage just does not stand up to hydra. When used with Back-ended burst, %currenthealth damage from autos are deceptively nice. Assuming you are fighting 2k health target with 33 post-ARPen armor (25% damage reduction, yay picking easy numbers.) and you're level 11 and you hit them with R, 1 E, activation, Q shurikens from 2 shadows, passive, and 2 or 3 auto attacks (3 for bork, 2 for hydra): Items: Brutalizer, either BORK or Hydra Skills: 5Q, 3E, 2R, 1W, +5% AD. +20 AD from runes/masteries (we'll assume some are ARpen) 84 base AD at level 11. 104 AD without items. +25 from brutalizer, +75 from hydra OR 25 from BORK for either 159 or 204, +5% gives 166 or 214. 1230 BORK build has 82 bonus AD. Hydra build has 130. BORK: R -> (Ignite) -> Auto (166+82) 182 dmg -> Activate (300) 225 dmg-> E (120+65) 138 dmg->Auto (166+58) 168 dmg -> Q (235+82 + 117+41) 356 dmg -> passive proc - target has less than 50% health remaining.Auto (166+37.16+160 magic damage ~ 110 post-reduction damage = 262 damage 1333 damage done so far, plus 3 seconds worth of ignite = .75*270 = 1535 damage R pops for 166*0.75+0.35*1535 = 661.75 damage. Total damage done by ulti combo = 2196 damage. (1 tick of ignite remaining for about 68 damage)Hydra: R -> (Ignite) -> Activate (214) 160.5 -> Auto (214) 160.5 -> E (120+104) 168 -> Q (235+130+117+65) 410 -> passive-powered-auto (214 + ~110postreduction) 1169 damage done so far + 3 ticks of ignite = 1371 damage R pops for 214*0.75 (160.5) + 0.35*1371 (480) damage. Total = 2010 damage (also 68 damage left from ignite.)What's that about Hydra doing more damage, again? It's also a bit dicey whether, when you get the second Hydra-auto, if the target will actually be below 50% for your passive. When you add more AD, yes, the hydra active gets a bit better, but since the next damage item is almost certainly last whisper which also gives armor pen for the passive/active of BORK, BORK will stay in the lead for a very long time. And that's not even considering targets with higher health than that. I agree with Hydra on Talon, though. Zed has infinity waveclear, so he doesn't benefit from that part of Hydra. Why is it that in your BotRK math you have Zed doing 3 autos, but in your Hydra math you only have him doing 2? Also, I'd add up your stuff again. For your Hydra stuff you have 160.5 + 160.5 + 168 + 410 + 214 + 110 = 1169, when it = 1223. Similar simple math errors seem to be all over the BotRK section too.
I think he's using the assumption that you get an extra auto on Bork from the slow.
On August 05 2013 11:14 Slusher wrote:
Riven is petty much the only one that still makes sense. and Hydra is still really close (possibly better)
if it weren't for the fact that she had a defensive steroid scaling off of AD she'd prefer Hydra also.
Even then, in burst situations Hydra is better. The more AD you have, the more autos you can fit in and still deal more damage. I put a bunch or figures in the Riven thread.
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On August 05 2013 11:45 Slusher wrote:
pretty favorable numbers considering you have me ulting a melee hero with a giant belt item at level 11 with only a hydra completed.
idk I'm used to people phonetically pronouncing it "Bork blade" so I don't like the T >.>
p.s. I'm not saying it's bad on Zed, I'm saying hydra is better in at least ~50% of your Zed games and you should give it a thought.
Well, your next item is almost definitely last whisper, which actually helps the BORK a lot. The additional auto attack you get with the BORK (increased attack speed is very real) is surprisingly a big help. It's hard to get 3 autos in 3 seconds with a Hydra.
I figured 2k health at level 11 would be pretty sensible. That could just as easily be ulting the jungler or something (Golem Spirit completed) The ADC will die either way at this point in the game, but you have to consider that you're not always ulting the squishiest target on their team. If you're ulting a 1.5k health target, they die either way.
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On August 05 2013 12:46 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 12:41 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2013 11:39 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:47 Slusher wrote:
this is like the 4th time on this forum, hydra vs Bork math for zed ult has been done. Hydra always wins assuming they don't have a way to escape your E slow (mobility/jump ability), the reason people like Bork is the sticking power, the damage just does not stand up to hydra. When used with Back-ended burst, %currenthealth damage from autos are deceptively nice. Assuming you are fighting 2k health target with 33 post-ARPen armor (25% damage reduction, yay picking easy numbers.) and you're level 11 and you hit them with R, 1 E, activation, Q shurikens from 2 shadows, passive, and 2 or 3 auto attacks (3 for bork, 2 for hydra): Items: Brutalizer, either BORK or Hydra Skills: 5Q, 3E, 2R, 1W, +5% AD. +20 AD from runes/masteries (we'll assume some are ARpen) 84 base AD at level 11. 104 AD without items. +25 from brutalizer, +75 from hydra OR 25 from BORK for either 159 or 204, +5% gives 166 or 214. 1230 BORK build has 82 bonus AD. Hydra build has 130. BORK: R -> (Ignite) -> Auto (166+82) 182 dmg -> Activate (300) 225 dmg-> E (120+65) 138 dmg->Auto (166+58) 168 dmg -> Q (235+82 + 117+41) 356 dmg -> passive proc - target has less than 50% health remaining.Auto (166+37.16+160 magic damage ~ 110 post-reduction damage = 262 damage 1333 damage done so far, plus 3 seconds worth of ignite = .75*270 = 1535 damage R pops for 166*0.75+0.35*1535 = 661.75 damage. Total damage done by ulti combo = 2196 damage. (1 tick of ignite remaining for about 68 damage)Hydra: R -> (Ignite) -> Activate (214) 160.5 -> Auto (214) 160.5 -> E (120+104) 168 -> Q (235+130+117+65) 410 -> passive-powered-auto (214 + ~110postreduction) 1169 damage done so far + 3 ticks of ignite = 1371 damage R pops for 214*0.75 (160.5) + 0.35*1371 (480) damage. Total = 2010 damage (also 68 damage left from ignite.)What's that about Hydra doing more damage, again? It's also a bit dicey whether, when you get the second Hydra-auto, if the target will actually be below 50% for your passive. When you add more AD, yes, the hydra active gets a bit better, but since the next damage item is almost certainly last whisper which also gives armor pen for the passive/active of BORK, BORK will stay in the lead for a very long time. And that's not even considering targets with higher health than that. I agree with Hydra on Talon, though. Zed has infinity waveclear, so he doesn't benefit from that part of Hydra. Why is it that in your BotRK math you have Zed doing 3 autos, but in your Hydra math you only have him doing 2? Also, I'd add up your stuff again. For your Hydra stuff you have 160.5 + 160.5 + 168 + 410 + 214 + 110 = 1169, when it = 1223. Similar simple math errors seem to be all over the BotRK section too. I think he's using the assumption that you get an extra auto on Bork from the slow. Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 11:14 Slusher wrote:
Riven is petty much the only one that still makes sense. and Hydra is still really close (possibly better)
if it weren't for the fact that she had a defensive steroid scaling off of AD she'd prefer Hydra also. Even then, in burst situations Hydra is better. The more AD you have, the more autos you can fit in and still deal more damage. I put a bunch or figures in the Riven thread.
I've heard that the Hydra active gives Riven a charge of her passive, is that true?
And I mean, our argument always was in Hydra vs BotRK for Zed that Hydra was more damage unless BotRK's slow and attack speed got you an extra auto, in which case BotRK is better.
Realistically it's a moot argument. BotRK adds utility, and if you get a full uninterrupted combo on somebody as Zed you're probably going to kill them with either item. That's why people buy BotRK over Hydra.
The entire point of mathing it out is to show that Hydra is a really goddamn strong item, and should be considered on other champions.
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On August 05 2013 12:50 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 12:46 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2013 12:41 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2013 11:39 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:47 Slusher wrote:
this is like the 4th time on this forum, hydra vs Bork math for zed ult has been done. Hydra always wins assuming they don't have a way to escape your E slow (mobility/jump ability), the reason people like Bork is the sticking power, the damage just does not stand up to hydra. When used with Back-ended burst, %currenthealth damage from autos are deceptively nice. Assuming you are fighting 2k health target with 33 post-ARPen armor (25% damage reduction, yay picking easy numbers.) and you're level 11 and you hit them with R, 1 E, activation, Q shurikens from 2 shadows, passive, and 2 or 3 auto attacks (3 for bork, 2 for hydra): Items: Brutalizer, either BORK or Hydra Skills: 5Q, 3E, 2R, 1W, +5% AD. +20 AD from runes/masteries (we'll assume some are ARpen) 84 base AD at level 11. 104 AD without items. +25 from brutalizer, +75 from hydra OR 25 from BORK for either 159 or 204, +5% gives 166 or 214. 1230 BORK build has 82 bonus AD. Hydra build has 130. BORK: R -> (Ignite) -> Auto (166+82) 182 dmg -> Activate (300) 225 dmg-> E (120+65) 138 dmg->Auto (166+58) 168 dmg -> Q (235+82 + 117+41) 356 dmg -> passive proc - target has less than 50% health remaining.Auto (166+37.16+160 magic damage ~ 110 post-reduction damage = 262 damage 1333 damage done so far, plus 3 seconds worth of ignite = .75*270 = 1535 damage R pops for 166*0.75+0.35*1535 = 661.75 damage. Total damage done by ulti combo = 2196 damage. (1 tick of ignite remaining for about 68 damage)Hydra: R -> (Ignite) -> Activate (214) 160.5 -> Auto (214) 160.5 -> E (120+104) 168 -> Q (235+130+117+65) 410 -> passive-powered-auto (214 + ~110postreduction) 1169 damage done so far + 3 ticks of ignite = 1371 damage R pops for 214*0.75 (160.5) + 0.35*1371 (480) damage. Total = 2010 damage (also 68 damage left from ignite.)What's that about Hydra doing more damage, again? It's also a bit dicey whether, when you get the second Hydra-auto, if the target will actually be below 50% for your passive. When you add more AD, yes, the hydra active gets a bit better, but since the next damage item is almost certainly last whisper which also gives armor pen for the passive/active of BORK, BORK will stay in the lead for a very long time. And that's not even considering targets with higher health than that. I agree with Hydra on Talon, though. Zed has infinity waveclear, so he doesn't benefit from that part of Hydra. Why is it that in your BotRK math you have Zed doing 3 autos, but in your Hydra math you only have him doing 2? Also, I'd add up your stuff again. For your Hydra stuff you have 160.5 + 160.5 + 168 + 410 + 214 + 110 = 1169, when it = 1223. Similar simple math errors seem to be all over the BotRK section too. I think he's using the assumption that you get an extra auto on Bork from the slow. On August 05 2013 11:14 Slusher wrote:
Riven is petty much the only one that still makes sense. and Hydra is still really close (possibly better)
if it weren't for the fact that she had a defensive steroid scaling off of AD she'd prefer Hydra also. Even then, in burst situations Hydra is better. The more AD you have, the more autos you can fit in and still deal more damage. I put a bunch or figures in the Riven thread. I've heard that the Hydra active gives Riven a charge of her passive, is that true?And I mean, our argument always was in Hydra vs BotRK for Zed that Hydra was more damage unless BotRK's slow and attack speed got you an extra auto, in which case BotRK is better. Realistically it's a moot argument. BotRK adds utility, and if you get a full uninterrupted combo on somebody as Zed you're probably going to kill them with either item. That's why people buy BotRK over Hydra. The entire point of mathing it out is to show that Hydra is a really goddamn strong item, and should be considered on other champions.
Unless I'm misremembering, it used to. It doesn't as of 3.9(when I last checked.)
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United States23745 Posts
On August 05 2013 12:37 wei2coolman wrote:
I use "blade" and "bladed" for the active. Bork just sounds silly.
Exactly, it's just fun to say :D
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On August 05 2013 12:56 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 12:37 wei2coolman wrote:
I use "blade" and "bladed" for the active. Bork just sounds silly. Exactly, it's just fun to say :D
League is serious business.
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EPT
