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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Basically Hydra is more damage in a vacuum but BotRK possibly gets you 1 extra autoattack during the death mark through the slow and attack speed, which would make BotRK do more damage. And Cutlass + Brutalizer or Cutlass + Tiamat outdamages either of them. I'd be happy to do more Hydra math if anybody has any requests, but in general I think "if you're melee, Hydra > BT" is a safe statement. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
Hydra is more damage than Bork in most cases, but the utility of Bork's speed steal makes it superior in many cases. Hydra is better than BT, though. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2013 08:41 ticklishmusic wrote: On Zed the % current hp of Bork synergizes well with his ult. I think that's the main reason for building it on him. The % damage you get isn't really that significant in terms of his full burst combo. It's mostly the fact that you get an extra slow/haste. With W+E slow and Bork speed steal you can assassinate targets extremely easily even if they have flash. On August 05 2013 08:42 sob3k wrote: zac jump does same damage no matter how long you charge it right? yep | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On August 05 2013 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote: The % damage you get isn't really that significant in terms of his full burst combo. It's mostly the fact that you get an extra slow/haste. With W+E slow and Bork speed steal you can assassinate targets extremely easily even if they have flash. yep Eh, in general its a good item on him. Dropping ult, Bork active adds about an extra 400 damage on a squishy (15% hp plus half that from death mark, assuming around 2k hp and no defensive item yet). I think maybe a Cleaver + Bork into tank Zed might work pretty well actually (something like Frozen Mallet, Randuin's, etc.). I'm pretty limited to support and jungle, so that be a dumb spur of the moment thing to say. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On August 05 2013 08:56 ticklishmusic wrote: Eh, in general its a good item on him. Dropping ult, Bork active adds about an extra 400 damage on a squishy (15% hp plus half that from death mark, assuming around 2k hp and no defensive item yet). I think maybe a Cleaver + Bork into tank Zed might work pretty well actually (something like Frozen Mallet, Randuin's, etc.). I'm pretty limited to support and jungle, so that be a dumb spur of the moment thing to say. This is what started our big math escapade in the old thread. Basically, Hydra will outdamage BotRK on Zed, assuming you don't need the speed steal to chase them down. Utility wise, BotRK is obvs better. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:23 Alaric wrote: I wondered if BotRK would be nice on Talon for the same reasons This was what I was hoping the conversation would angle towards. I'm a little suspicious of the tendency to auto-buy hydra on certain heroes with botrk available and questionably balanced. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11504 Posts
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:40 UniversalSnip wrote: This was what I was hoping the conversation would angle towards. I'm a little suspicious of the tendency to auto-buy hydra on certain heroes with botrk available and questionably balanced. BotrK is only good if : 1) you can auto attack a lot (not the case on that many melee heroes) 2) you're auto attack dependant 3) you make good use of the AS and the proc Tbh very few melee casters make use of this. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:53 -Zoda- wrote: Meteos said on stream he thinks carry junglers are stronger on this patch. He didn't elaborate but I guess it is related to the aegis changes. So does this mean he'll just stomp every team just a bit harder? Also, just noticed how good Zac's auto attacks are. I noticed how easy it was to last hit with him; he also seems to do quite a bit of AA damage. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:50 mr_tolkien wrote: BotrK is only good if : 1) you can auto attack a lot (not the case on that many melee heroes) 2) you're auto attack dependant 3) you make good use of the AS and the proc Tbh very few melee casters make use of this. That's not true. Bork is good if 1. You want the speed steal. Hydra is better if 1. You don't want the speed steal. That's honestly the only thing that you should be considering when choosing between the two. Regardless if you're auto attack dependent or whatever, Hydra will outdamage Bork in like 90% of situations in a vacuum. On August 05 2013 09:55 wei2coolman wrote: So does this mean he'll just stomp every team just a bit harder? Also, just noticed how good Zac's auto attacks are. I noticed how easy it was to last hit with him; he also seems to do quite a bit of AA damage. Really? I don't like Zac's auto attack animation. There's a pretty significant front swing so I cancel my autos by accident quite a bit. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
His ult is actually prob. what inspired Singed's initial form: base attack speed buff (to make it short it scales insanely because imagine a spell that doubles the %AS you get from any source (items, buffs, etc.)), MS buff, flat increase of mana and health regen. It's also long duration, short cooldown, imagine pre-nerf Mundo ult. Which made me think about old designs like Mundo himself. How stacked his kit is. How strong he could be lategame. But because of the way LoL items work, you could never see Mundo play a carry role. Which makes me kinda sad. T_T Mundo, Olaf, Jax have carry potential, and their kits are more interesting/diversified than most of the marksmen, but itemisation won't ever let them try their hand at it. On August 05 2013 10:01 wei2coolman wrote: BT is pretty good on talon imo; he doesn't really need the extra clear from Hydra; considering how well he clears with rakes. Talon has a 4 bonus AD ratio in his kit (well, there's potentially a bit more through autos, his passive and cutthroat, but the laters are %amp. anyway), which means that with BT giving up to 25 more AD, if Tiamat's active lets you inflict 1 total AD damage more compared to BT, then Tiamat's better as long as you have 100 total AD, which you should with base AD and Tiamat alone. Thus, unless you for some reason can't use Tiamat's active in your full combo, it always outperforms BT for Talon. Not enough AD scaling. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Assume we have a squishy with 2K hp (we'll ignore armor because it applies equally to both items, but it would be approximately 70 for 58% damage reduction at level 18). Bork will do 15% of current HP (we will assume its essentially max) for Zed with its active, for approximately 300 damage. We can ignore the extra damage from death mark because it applies equally to all damage. Same thing goes for his passive proc. Therefore to do the same damage as Bork, Hydra will need to do 300 damage, e.g. Zed will need to have 300 AD. Because of his E passive ( OP free +.25% AD), that's actually going to be 240. With 110 damage at lvl 18, that means Zed will need 130 AD more, or rather after Hydra's 75 AD, he needs 55 more AD to equal Bork's active damage. This discounts runes and masteries, as well as the fact Bork will continue to do 5% per auto. Q (235 + 100%)*1.5 E 180 + 80% R 100% AD for a total AD ratio of 3.3 The difference in AD is 75 - 25 = 50. So, 50*1.25*3.3 is 206. So I'll subtract the 55 difference, so now Hydra is 151 ahead of Bork. This is the more confusing point where we decide how many autoattacks Zed can sneak in with either item, but I think its reasonable that Bork will let you get in at least one more than Hydra. Scenario 1: Zed full combos with Hydra but gets no autos off. With Bork, he manages to get in an extra auto off. In this (unlikely) case with Bork as his single damage item, he has (110 * 25)*1.25 = ~ 169 AD. The auto does this much, plus whatever amount from the 5% current HP. In this scenario, Bork wins out by something more than 18 damage, plus the possibility that the slow will let another member of your team finish the job. Scenario 2: Zed full combos with Bork but gets an auto off. With Bork, he gets two autos off instead. This means with Hydra he does 231 damage with the one auto. With Bork, he does 338 plus 8% current hp (extreme lazy math assuming 5% of current and then ~3% being an approximation of current hp after the auto damage). Bork wins again. EDIT: Both scenarios should also include the +50% damage from his ult, which makes the difference even bigger. If you combo correctly (and barring amazing reflexes from the enemy support or something), Bork will do more damage while having more utility than Hydra. On the other hand, Zed makes a decent splitpusher so having the AOE of Hydra to push faster may be useful. On the other hand, Bork will make him a much stronger 1v1 and possibly force the enemy to send more people to stop him at the cost of a slower push. v I hit preview and posted on accident woops | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 05 2013 10:17 ticklishmusic wrote: Well, look at it this way: (I'm doing the math partially for my own benefit, if I make any egregious mistakes its cuz I slept on a friend's floor last night so I could get a ride to church/ grocery shopping) Assume we have a squishy with 2K hp (we'll ignore armor because it applies equally to both items, but it would be approximately 70 for 58% damage reduction at level 18). Bork will do 15% of current HP (we will assume its essentially max) for Zed with its active, for approximately 300 damage. We can ignore the extra damage from death mark because it applies equally to all damage. Same thing goes for his passive proc. Therefore to do the same damage as Bork, Hydra will need to do 300 damage, e.g. Zed will need to have 300 AD. Because of his E passive ( OP free +.25% AD), that's actually going to be 240. With 110 damage at lvl 18, that means Zed will need 130 AD more, or rather after Hydra's 75 AD, he needs 55 more AD to equal Bork's damage. This discounts runes and masteries, as well as the fact Bork will continue to do 5% per auto. You're skipping SO MANY THINGS here. You skipping the fact that the +50 AD on hydra applies to the AD ratios on QER, you skipped the additional autos that BORK does from increased AS (and increased stickiness). It's more than JUST the damage from the active. For hydra to really be good on zed, you basically need to be facing people who don't move when you ult them. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:40 UniversalSnip wrote: This was what I was hoping the conversation would angle towards. I'm a little suspicious of the tendency to auto-buy hydra on certain heroes with botrk available and questionably balanced. For Talon: His damage combo is E > auto > Q > W > R I'm going to assume that his ult only hits the target once. So his AD modification on this combo is: 2.00(two autos) + 1.30 (Q) + 1.20 (W) + .75 (R) all times 1.15 for his E damage modification. Total of 5.25 x1.15 = 6.0375 So in this combo he gets the following bonus damage from these items: Hydra: 452.8125 BotRK: 150.9375 LW: 241.5 So basically, in order for BotRK to outdamage Hydra in this situation, its active + the 2 passive hits have to do 300 more damage than the Hydra active, which is probably doing at least 150-200 damage depending on your level and what other items you have. I don't think I need to do any math to show that the target would need at least 3k health for that to be true, and if you're Talon why are you comboing a guy with 3k health. A more interesting question is if Hydra outdamages LW and a Brutalizer. Lets say for the ease of our brains that the Hydra active is doing 200 damage (about right for level 11 or so when you'd have the items), so Hydra is at about 650 extra damage to LW+Brut's 391. Lets look at how that 35% arpen affects those damage numbers at different armor levels, assuming Talon has 20 flat and 8% arpen from runes masteries. At 100 armor (100 x65% x92% -30 = 29.8 effective armor with LW+Brut) (100 x92% -20 = 72 effective armor with Hydra) Hydra: 650 /1.72 = 377.90 LW+Brut: 391 /1.298 = 301.23 At 200 armor (200 x65% x92% -30 = 89.6 effective armor with LW+Brut) (200 x92% -20 = 164 effective armor with Hydra) Hydra: 650 /2.64 = 246.21 LW+Brut: 391 /1.896 = 206.22 Remember that that's only the added AD from the item, not how much the arpen modifies the base damage of the skills themselves. I actually also messed up some things like the 15% bonus damage from Talons E on the hydra active and blah blah, but we're looking at sub level 18 for this experiment anyway. The takeaway from this should be what we already knew, that Brutalizer into LW is the best way to do damage with Talon. But Hydra is clearly and blatantly outdamaging BotRK, and the best build order for damage is very likely to be Brut > LW > Hydra. I'd like to see if Tiamat > LW outdamages Brut > LW, I think it probably should. But I'm going out to dinner fairly soon, if people are actually interested in it I'll put a post out later tonight. | ||
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