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United States47024 Posts
The thing is, those new support items don't beat the selfish options to begin with. So more options is going to lead to people using their gold to buy more selfish items because efficient CDR and survivability stats to use more spells is going to outweigh mediocre actives put on awkward stat combinations.
I will admit that I'm biased because I have an irrational loathing for selfish items. Every nerf to aura/team items has rubbed me the wrong way mostly because I'd rather those items be too strong than the personal-benefit items that invariably become too strong in their wake. As a matter of preference I just like seeing items like WotA/Aegis/Abyssal/etc. be too strong rather than Warmog's/Wit's/IE/every other singular-benefit item that's been too strong before, not for any rational reason, but just because I like team items.
As a consequence, my take on team items is that if aura items are not strong enough for a 1st position carry to be buying one some of the time, they're not strong enough.
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On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:
I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway.
The Locket active actually works best when the shield reduces a good part of the total output from the enemy team. Sure once you're level 18 you get a ~40% bigger shield than at level 9, but the burst damage you're going to eat, and furthermore the follow-up dps (multiplicative scaling from autos and all that) are going to be higher than 140% in post-mitigation absolute numbers.
I have a Locket on my jungler in the midgame? It can tank the first tower shot, if we have enough burst it basically means diving with the active is the same as ganking in the middle of the lane without it.
Once everybody's farmed up and we siege a tower 5v5 and I have Locket? The active is just some more HP, it'll almost never be the difference that'll make me confident about diving.
Having Locket as a high-cost, high-end item is a dumb idea because it removes so much from the dynamics and timing you can hit off of an early-midgame anti-nuke/shield item.
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On July 16 2013 09:56 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:46 onlywonderboy wrote:
Seems like a bit of a drastic change in the middle of the season. This strikes me more as something they would try in per-season 4. Yeah; I find it weird that they want to do all these changes before season 4. Unless they want Worlds to be a crapshoot, so higher chance for NA teams #believetheconspiracy.
Honestly I'd say Diana and Rengar being added to the game just before the end of Season 2 was a more drastic change to the competitive scene than these bulwark and MR item changes will be. Maybe I'm being really myopic but I don't see anything drastic happening, the new locket will just replace bulwark on junglers and supports and junglers will continue sharing the oracle's burden. New MR items are interesting, but if the numbers are being generally nerfed then I don't see them having a huge impact either - MR is still really underwhelming as a stat.
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personally, I like team helper items, but generally not auras. force staff is very much a team item and it's three times more entertaining for literally everyone involved, including the enemy team, than an aura item. Aura items benefit a lot from trading generality for raw power: in other words, when you buy an aura item that only helps one or two other people on your team, but the benefit is much more visible and substantial than would be possible if your whole team were helped, that's a net improvement. Think of how much math you have to do to even know how much a bulwark helped you during a teamfight, whereas with a zekes you can literally see the effect.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On July 16 2013 10:03 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:
I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway. The Locket active actually works best when the shield reduces a good part of the total output from the enemy team. Sure once you're level 18 you get a ~40% bigger shield than at level 9, but the burst damage you're going to eat, and furthermore the follow-up dps (multiplicative scaling from autos and all that) are going to be higher than 140% in post-mitigation absolute numbers. I have a Locket on my jungler in the midgame? It can tank the first tower shot, if we have enough burst it basically means diving with the active is the same as ganking in the middle of the lane without it. Once everybody's farmed up and we siege a tower 5v5 and I have Locket? The active is just some more HP, it'll almost never be the difference that'll make me confident about diving. Having Locket as a high-cost, high-end item is a dumb idea because it removes so much from the dynamics and timing you can hit off of an early-midgame anti-nuke/shield item.
Locket as a high-cost super-shield high-end item also neuters burst mages even harder which is also not a good thing and if you want to do something about assassins there are better methods imo. Also then you just get abuse cases where you stack then and have a team of tanky fighters and even if it's not the best strategy it's still obnoxious.
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On July 16 2013 10:00 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, those new support items don't beat the selfish options to begin with. So more options is going to lead to people using their gold to buy more selfish items because efficient CDR and survivability stats to use more spells is going to outweigh mediocre actives put on awkward stat combinations.
I will admit that I'm biased because I have an irrational loathing for selfish items. Every nerf to aura/team items has rubbed me the wrong way mostly because I'd rather those items be too strong than the personal-benefit items that invariably become too strong in their wake. As a matter of preference I just like seeing items like WotA/Aegis/Abyssal/etc. be too strong rather than Warmog's/Wit's/IE/every other singular-benefit item that's been too strong before, not for any rational reason, but just because I like team items.
There needs to be a balance though. Locket will still be insanely cost effective, so I'd be surprised if one didn't get built every game, but Locket being a good choice on multiple champions every game was stifling, and Bulwark was stupidly cost effective, particularly given the lack of good MR options after the s3 gutting. I dunno, combining them so there can be room for other options just makes sense to me at face value (taking the terrible state of some of the other support items out of the equation).
I agree with you on the subject of aura items though, particularly Zeke's and WotA but I think both items aren't in that bad of a place. If you have a team with multiple champs of a single damage type the items are very cost effective, and WotA gives a fair bit of benefit to champs who don't traditionally utilize AP (like say Varus). Riot forcing already good options down the throat of the playerbase almost always leads to disaster, at least in the short term. BotRK anyone?
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On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:48 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. There's still no compelling reason to wait for a support to have 2700 gold before you have Locket when you could have it way earlier on a jungler or top laner. No, but it's still more achievable for the jungler as well which will largely have the same effect of increasing options. With less passive gain provided by the item and more MR options (including budget ones) it becomes less vital to complete asap. I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway.
If you've watched competitive games recently, a rich support has maybe a kindlegem boots oracles, a ruby sightstone, and a stack of pinks. A poor one would be walking around with boots oracles normal sightstone and a couple of greens 30 minutes in. The poor support has about 900g of non-consumable stats. I don't think this trend will change either without a really cost efficient, poor slot efficiency item coming out in the sub 1500 price range(active AoE HP/mana restore, 1/2 second single target invuln, soulshroud passive etc)
The most efficient support stats are HP and CDR. HP because they're too poor to buy both types of resist, and have low HP too because of level. CDR helps the support put out more spells = more support.
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actually speaking of force staff riot is pretty averse to adding that specific item because of griefing potential but I'd really love to see an item that's like a ruby crystal + 800 gold recipe or something that you can use on an ally to speed them up or on an enemy to jerk them toward you a bit. That's basically the same thing without grief potential and it's pretty much the most fun item in dota so c'mon riot >:).
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United States23745 Posts
On July 16 2013 10:12 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:On July 16 2013 09:48 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. There's still no compelling reason to wait for a support to have 2700 gold before you have Locket when you could have it way earlier on a jungler or top laner. No, but it's still more achievable for the jungler as well which will largely have the same effect of increasing options. With less passive gain provided by the item and more MR options (including budget ones) it becomes less vital to complete asap. I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway. If you've watched competitive games recently, a rich support has maybe a kindlegem boots oracles, a ruby sightstone, and a stack of pinks. A poor one would be walking around with boots oracles normal sightstone and a couple of greens 30 minutes in. The poor support has about 900g of non-consumable stats. I don't think this trend will change either without a really cost efficient, poor slot efficiency item coming out in the sub 1500 price range(active AoE HP/mana restore, The most efficient support stats are HP and CDR. HP because they're too poor to buy both types of resist, and have low HP too because of level. CDR helps the support put out more spells = more support.
I hope something happens to change the Support meta, I hate it in its current state. I guess this isn't it though.
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On July 16 2013 10:03 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:
I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway. The Locket active actually works best when the shield reduces a good part of the total output from the enemy team. Sure once you're level 18 you get a ~40% bigger shield than at level 9, but the burst damage you're going to eat, and furthermore the follow-up dps (multiplicative scaling from autos and all that) are going to be higher than 140% in post-mitigation absolute numbers. I have a Locket on my jungler in the midgame? It can tank the first tower shot, if we have enough burst it basically means diving with the active is the same as ganking in the middle of the lane without it. Once everybody's farmed up and we siege a tower 5v5 and I have Locket? The active is just some more HP, it'll almost never be the difference that'll make me confident about diving. Having Locket as a high-cost, high-end item is a dumb idea because it removes so much from the dynamics and timing you can hit off of an early-midgame anti-nuke/shield item.
You have Locket in the mid game because it's very much cost effective even getting minimal use out of the active (on say 1 or 2 people).
Taking the current power of the item out of the equation, an item that provides an aoe benefit should be strongest during teamfights. I'd go a step further and say that if you want an item like that to be balanced it should be effective against aoe damage, but far less effective against single target damage. I think that's the direction they're looking to go with Locket and I don't think balancing the item like that is a bad thing.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On July 16 2013 10:12 UniversalSnip wrote:
actually speaking of force staff riot is pretty averse to adding that specific item because of griefing potential but I'd really love to see an item that's like a ruby crystal + 800 gold recipe or something that you can use on an ally to speed them up or on an enemy to jerk them toward you a bit. That's basically the same thing without grief potential and it's pretty much the most fun item in dota so c'mon riot >:).
Having a self-only cast Force Staff would be pretty interesting and definitely open a lot of new avenues of play. But I'm not sure it could be balance-able in LoL's current state of design.
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United States47024 Posts
An item that's geared toward "AoE teamfight" is fundamentally more useful in midgame than lategame because the later the game goes, the more centered the damage-dealing ability of a team becomes around a small number of damage points (with the strongest-scaling one almost always being the single-target damage dealer--the AD carry), as opposed to all 5 team members providing relevant damage in fights that occur around the 15 minute mark.
On July 16 2013 10:20 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:12 UniversalSnip wrote:
actually speaking of force staff riot is pretty averse to adding that specific item because of griefing potential but I'd really love to see an item that's like a ruby crystal + 800 gold recipe or something that you can use on an ally to speed them up or on an enemy to jerk them toward you a bit. That's basically the same thing without grief potential and it's pretty much the most fun item in dota so c'mon riot >:). Having a self-only cast Force Staff would be pretty interesting and definitely open a lot of new avenues of play. But I'm not sure it could be balance-able in LoL's current state of design.
A self-only Force Staff would be fundamentally equivalent to Flash, given that the largest differentiating factor between self-Force Staff and Blink Dagger is the range tradeoff for the "goes on CD when you take damage" clause, and Flash already has too short of a range to make that tradeoff further.
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On July 16 2013 10:14 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:12 Amui wrote:On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:On July 16 2013 09:48 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. There's still no compelling reason to wait for a support to have 2700 gold before you have Locket when you could have it way earlier on a jungler or top laner. No, but it's still more achievable for the jungler as well which will largely have the same effect of increasing options. With less passive gain provided by the item and more MR options (including budget ones) it becomes less vital to complete asap. I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway. If you've watched competitive games recently, a rich support has maybe a kindlegem boots oracles, a ruby sightstone, and a stack of pinks. A poor one would be walking around with boots oracles normal sightstone and a couple of greens 30 minutes in. The poor support has about 900g of non-consumable stats. I don't think this trend will change either without a really cost efficient, poor slot efficiency item coming out in the sub 1500 price range(active AoE HP/mana restore, The most efficient support stats are HP and CDR. HP because they're too poor to buy both types of resist, and have low HP too because of level. CDR helps the support put out more spells = more support. I hope something happens to change the Support meta, I hate it in its current state. I guess this isn't it though.
This just makes it worse for supports. Now, supports will go from "i shall buy a locket by 30 minutes" (soloqueue) (pro version: If I pick up more kills/assists than normal) to "I shall never buy real items because they all suck or are super expensive. Sightstone Moboboots only!"
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On July 16 2013 10:12 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:On July 16 2013 09:48 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. There's still no compelling reason to wait for a support to have 2700 gold before you have Locket when you could have it way earlier on a jungler or top laner. No, but it's still more achievable for the jungler as well which will largely have the same effect of increasing options. With less passive gain provided by the item and more MR options (including budget ones) it becomes less vital to complete asap. I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway. If you've watched competitive games recently, a rich support has maybe a kindlegem boots oracles, a ruby sightstone, and a stack of pinks. A poor one would be walking around with boots oracles normal sightstone and a couple of greens 30 minutes in. The poor support has about 900g of non-consumable stats. I don't think this trend will change either without a really cost efficient, poor slot efficiency item coming out in the sub 1500 price range(active AoE HP/mana restore, 1/2 second single target invuln, soulshroud passive etc) The most efficient support stats are HP and CDR. HP because they're too poor to buy both types of resist, and have low HP too because of level. CDR helps the support put out more spells = more support.
I have seen supports getting Bulwark in pro games (VES vs Curse IIRC) and Locket is taken on supports at pro level semi-frequently. Pro games haven't been played on the ward gold sharing patch either. I take your point though.
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On July 16 2013 10:20 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:12 UniversalSnip wrote:
actually speaking of force staff riot is pretty averse to adding that specific item because of griefing potential but I'd really love to see an item that's like a ruby crystal + 800 gold recipe or something that you can use on an ally to speed them up or on an enemy to jerk them toward you a bit. That's basically the same thing without grief potential and it's pretty much the most fun item in dota so c'mon riot >:). Having a self-only cast Force Staff would be pretty interesting and definitely open a lot of new avenues of play. But I'm not sure it could be balance-able in LoL's current state of design.
well, that definitely isn't what I was thinking. It would be more like a lulu spell.
On ally cast: they gain X% movespeed.
On enemy cast: Pulls them toward you X units.
this doesn't quite replicate force staff but I think the feel will be extremely similar.
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On July 16 2013 09:27 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:23 cLutZ wrote:
Shouldn't they be nerfing Torment and Cleaver instead? ... what?
Hexdrinker is a beast early-midgame item, much like Guise and Brutalizer. There is no reason any of those 3 items should upgrade into a good lategame item.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 16 2013 10:23 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:12 Amui wrote:On July 16 2013 09:56 Amarok wrote:On July 16 2013 09:48 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. There's still no compelling reason to wait for a support to have 2700 gold before you have Locket when you could have it way earlier on a jungler or top laner. No, but it's still more achievable for the jungler as well which will largely have the same effect of increasing options. With less passive gain provided by the item and more MR options (including budget ones) it becomes less vital to complete asap. I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway. If you've watched competitive games recently, a rich support has maybe a kindlegem boots oracles, a ruby sightstone, and a stack of pinks. A poor one would be walking around with boots oracles normal sightstone and a couple of greens 30 minutes in. The poor support has about 900g of non-consumable stats. I don't think this trend will change either without a really cost efficient, poor slot efficiency item coming out in the sub 1500 price range(active AoE HP/mana restore, 1/2 second single target invuln, soulshroud passive etc) The most efficient support stats are HP and CDR. HP because they're too poor to buy both types of resist, and have low HP too because of level. CDR helps the support put out more spells = more support. I have seen supports getting Bulwark in pro games (VES vs Curse IIRC) and Locket is taken on supports at pro level semi-frequently. Pro games haven't been played on the ward gold sharing patch either. I take your point though.
OGN is all about Supports being the ward bitch. It's very rare to see a support pick up any real items.
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United States47024 Posts
Yeah, I'm pretty sure in light of OGN and LPL, a game between the bottom 2 teams in NA LCS hardly qualifies as a model for support play.
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On July 16 2013 10:27 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:27 UniversalSnip wrote:On July 16 2013 09:23 cLutZ wrote:
Shouldn't they be nerfing Torment and Cleaver instead? ... what? Hexdrinker is a beast early-midgame item, much like Guise and Brutalizer. There is no reason any of those 3 items should upgrade into a good lategame item.
Eh, Liandry is a SITUATIONAL late game item, Cleaver is only good if you're either so stupidly good at stacking it and already have a LW (Pre-3.09 Muramana users esp one whose name may start with J) or if you're going for more team utility than selfish power (almost everyone else)
In all three cases, you should never be rushing the Liandry/Cleaver/Maw out of your Guise/Brutalizer/Hexdrinker before finishing other core items.
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On July 16 2013 10:21 TheYango wrote:
An item that's geared toward "AoE teamfight" is fundamentally more useful in midgame than lategame because the later the game goes, the more centered the damage-dealing ability of a team becomes around a small number of damage points (with the strongest-scaling one almost always being the single-target damage dealer--the AD carry), as opposed to all 5 team members providing relevant damage in fights that occur around the 15 minute mark.
Generally this is true, but it's also more or less true depending on the team comp which is the point I was trying to make. A team with big AoE ultimates will always be doing relevant AoE damage, while a team centered around catching and destroying a single target won't necessarily have much even in the midgame. A Malphite/Ori/Varis/Sona team being countered with different items than an Elise/Zed/Vayne/Thresh team is the basic premise.
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