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I'm confused. Is Bulwark really removed? The notes from surrender@20 don't say that it is. Removing Bulwark is just fucking retarded.
I also think Riot's nerf hammer is being applied way too liberally. Jayce probably needs nerfs but those nerfs are freaking huge and imo very much an overreaction. Especially considering how they just nerfed the shit out of his E and Muramana, which was a big part of what made Jayce OP was just hit super hard, as well.
I also think the Ryze changes are bad and probably an overnerf. Riot has shown in the past that they really underestimate how important and significant spell ranges are for a champion's viability. Cutting down Ryze's ranges to 600 is going to really really hurt. He was probably a bit strong, but I really don't think those nerfs are warranted. He's picked up often and has a decent winrate, but not nearly enough to warrant such big nerfs.
The new item+new Banshee's Veil passive confuses me. If I'm reading it right it's kinda like Innervating Locket except it procs on getting hit. Iunno man...
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SV and Cowl-based items won't go live with those values, Xypherous already stated they'd be heftily nerfed.
And Riot (here Xypherous) doesn't care at all about how OP Jayce is or isn't atm, he's already stated in a half-dozen posts that Jayce being vastly superior with the "get mana, spam ranged QE" form means that even if for competitive LoL's sake they gut this style with numbers and stuff it won't make his other variants (namely bruiser hammer Jayce) better so he'd rather re-design Jayce's whole kit so his power is more equally distributed across the board, not making one build so superior to every other that even in pubs they're not worth using.
Which is independant from Tear, and from current Jayce's form.
Not that I necessarily agree with what he's doing nor how he handles it, but I find it somewhat funny that people tend to laud Xypherous' reasoning and designs so much (mainly off of advertised stuff like Orianna and Ziggs) while disregarding heavily that the way his views of design are formed he's also responsible for shit design like Riven, or has ideas like current health itemisation not being superior enough to resistances, and shields being basically a bad thing due to how they skew balance and complexify defensive itemisation's balance.
I mean he puts thought in what he does and his reasoning usually makes sense and it's obvious that he's smart and passionnate, but the premise he comes up with to apply said reasoning often irks me to no end.
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I also think the Master Yi rework is kinda uninspired. Champion UP in the way he's" supposed" to be played? Give him % health damage, gap closer, and/or true damage! It's like Riot wants people to complain and make fun of their balancing cliches.
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On July 16 2013 09:17 TheYango wrote:
Riot wrongfully believes that people don't buy other support items because Aegis and Locket are too good--when in reality people don't buy other support items because those items are awful.
it doesnt really matter if the other support items suck its just locket and aegis and boring must have items and putting 2 into one just increases build diversity because you have like 2k gold saved for anyone who went locket aegis before
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I understand that logic but why remove Bulwark on top of it?
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RIP in peace Jayce, Ryze, Bulwark
welcome back Olaf, curious to see how this new minimum range Q works in the jungle with the stick in walls thing.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On July 16 2013 09:28 dukethegold wrote:
I understand the the strength of Ryze and how this patch will butcher him, and I mean absolutely butcher him. It's completely unwarranted. He may deserve a slight knock on the head but not a grand slam with the nerf hammer.
This being PBE suggests to me that they're just trying lots of stuff all at once and then picking and choosing what they feel works the best overall. Given how it was when they first tested him in remake, I'd be surprised if they really want to complete nerf hammer him since there was resistance to doing that when he was seriously ridic. That being said, Riot does dislike it when champions are pervasive enough like Ryze is where they're played in multiple lanes to great success with odd build choices that are super effective. Hrm.
New Spirit Visage is also very interesting. I can see why they want to up MR stuff by adding in the HP regen to deal with magic damage that doesn't completely shaft instant-nuke casters but I disagree with the approach (especially when there still exists physical instant 100-0 nukers).
One thing that bothers me is that a lot of changes seem to be done piecemeal rather than with a grand unifying theory or holistic overarching ideal behind them. See the Bulwark changes and Yango's comments as a good point of reference.... Rather than dealing with the fact all other support items are trap choices (except at lower skill levels where confirmation bias and best case scenario thinking takes over) they just nerf the top choice. Hrm. When it comes to itemisation at least I am of the opinion that more is better. Not enough focus is placed I think in terms of synergy between items and consideration for the edge abuse cases (Locket) and strongly thinking about efficiency not only on an item-by-item basis (S2 Shurelyas) but also in terms of how it fits into the 1-5 farming system. It is no use having a good item if there is no reasonable way for any 1-5 position to either want it over a more selfish item or just not having the money for it (see: Crucible).
There is of course the issue of having focused paths and intuitive clear ways for people to learn how to correctly build champions (even at all levels of play at times) which is a pressing issue in complex games like MOBAs. But I don't think that having elegant and good item design can run contrary to that, especially with the ability of Riot to tweak the recommended items and through the use of social media. At the same time, thanks to item sets it would not be remiss for them to release a "generic pack of recommended stuff" for people to start with and then tweak.
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Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 16 2013 09:27 UniversalSnip wrote:
let's rephrase this: rather than being 'overpowered', and you always want the power level of the game to go up generally so I know that won't fly, consider it in terms of offering opportunities for decisions. Aegis and locket offer no decision making because there's no specificity to the choice to buy them. The question you ask is essentially 'am I playing league of legends?'. If you are, rank the members of your team from best to worst carrier and have the best buy it. So in that sense, they absolutely crowd out other options, even if they're not above the power curve. The design of this game - and dota does this too so you can be ok with it - chafes against generalist items like this.
Actually if you just remove the effect of Aegis on creeps and the HP regen, it becomes a purely teamfight-oriented item with mediocre effectiveness in all other situations (no contribution to ganking, unappealing buildup in laning/jungling compared to something like Golem Spirit), weak solo power for solo-killing/split-pushing/etc.
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United States23745 Posts
Seems like a bit of a drastic change in the middle of the season. This strikes me more as something they would try in per-season 4.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it.
There's still no compelling reason to wait for a support to have 2700 gold before you have Locket when you could have it way earlier on a jungler or top laner.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it.
I don't see how a change like this suddenly make a support player suddenly go "Well, time to start buying Ohmwrecker/Banner of Command/Eleisa's Miracle because they removed Bulwark and changed Locket!" Supports are still going to gravitate to a strict item build that's the most efficient defensively and with the stats-wise (so long as the stats are relevant) because of how gold poor they are. When you're poor, you don't have the luxury to go buying fancy special items. You just get the core that always works. Besides, in competitive games since when do Support finish any full item before 30 min (if even ever in a game?).
The same goes for junglers to an extent where they're still probably going to want to go some variation of the Golem Spirit into some defensive or aura item. You don't have room for damage junglers unless they take lots of lane farm. But then the person you took lane farm from is the gold poor one who ends up going the same path current Locket builders often go. So all you've done is shift the problem, not solve it.
If you have the 1-5 farming priority, someone is going to end up with the short end of the stick. Changing the colour of the sticks doesn't alter the fact someone still gets a short stick.
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United States47024 Posts
Fundamentally a team aura item is going to be hinged on it's cost-efficient stats to sell it in comparison to the multiplicative scaling of selfish items. This means that unless it provides really late-game oriented stats (e.g. AS+Lifesteal on old Zeke's), it's simply always going to be best to get it on the earliest possible person, because the "efficient flat stats" nature of it will make it better early and weaker late. There's simply no defensible reason why you would WAIT for a support to buy Aegis over a jungler, unless you make the item so bad that nobody should buy it.
If you want to gear an item toward a support buying it, you have to find a specific reason that it's good for supports but bad for everyone else. Of which, the only one that really currently makes sense in LoL is the slot-efficiency/cost-efficiency tradeoff because LoL simply doesn't allow for items like Blink Dagger.
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On July 16 2013 09:51 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. I don't see how a change like this suddenly make a support player suddenly go "Well, time to start buying Ohmwrecker/Banner of Command/Eleisa's Miracle because they removed Bulwark and changed Locket!" Supports are still going to gravitate to a strict item build that's the most efficient defensively and with the stats-wise (so long as the stats are relevant) because of how gold poor they are. When you're poor, you don't have the luxury to go buying fancy special items. You just get the core that always works. The same goes for junglers to an extent where they're still probably going to want to go some variation of the Golem Spirit into some defensive or aura item. You don't have room for damage junglers unless they take lots of lane farm. But then the person you took lane farm from is the gold poor one who ends up going the same path current Locket builders often go. So all you've done is shift the problem, not solve it. If you have the 1-5 farming priority, someone is going to end up with the short end of the stick. Changing the colour of the sticks doesn't alter the fact someone still gets a short stick.
it isnt really about support since mostj unglers picked up locket and aegis and support champs rarely get past philo/sightstone/boots in a lot of games anyway lol
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On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it.
Simple example: I love Locket on Vi because CDR makes her skirmishing so much stronger (Q cd super important to jump walls or simply chase people across the river), the shield on top of her passive and the power of her ultimate lets me try pretty early dives and make my games more dynamic due to the "play potential" these dives offer me, and it's cheap enough that I can get it early rather than only view it as a teamfighting item.
I love Locket on Leona because if I can get it early enough (I'll usually rush sightstone then Locket w/o even boots1, pepper that with pinks and additional green wards) laning phase is still going on and it gives me tremendous diving power, letting me pressure more. It also lets me survive burst damage better with my W shield, helping roaming and stuff even if laning finished before I'm done building it.
I love Locket as a skirmish item in general not because it's cost-efficient, but because the layer of HP and the shield helps against burst in general while granting you bait potential and stuff for a not-too-high cost.
The new locket? Fuck that shit, it comes way too late it's only a teamfighting item unless I get a bunch of gold and rush it as my very first item out of spirit stone (don't even tell me about supports), and the lack of MR means that I don't want to pour that much gold into armour+HP shield anyway (I often start aegis by Ruby+NMM).
I'll be more than happy to let somebody else build it because of how less desirable it's going to be from a timing stand-point for me if it goes live like that (current aegis often is mainly a timing issue anyway, as champs I play like Vi, Zyra, Fiddle, etc. don't even want to build it because they're bad carriers).
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On July 16 2013 09:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:27 UniversalSnip wrote:
let's rephrase this: rather than being 'overpowered', and you always want the power level of the game to go up generally so I know that won't fly, consider it in terms of offering opportunities for decisions. Aegis and locket offer no decision making because there's no specificity to the choice to buy them. The question you ask is essentially 'am I playing league of legends?'. If you are, rank the members of your team from best to worst carrier and have the best buy it. So in that sense, they absolutely crowd out other options, even if they're not above the power curve. The design of this game - and dota does this too so you can be ok with it - chafes against generalist items like this.
Actually if you just remove the effect of Aegis on creeps and the HP regen, it becomes a purely teamfight-oriented item with mediocre effectiveness in all other situations (no contribution to ganking, unappealing buildup in laning/jungling compared to something like Golem Spirit), weak solo power for solo-killing/split-pushing/etc.
it doesn't significantly impact the use case, you buy it and then group, if you can't group, you're not the best carrier so someone else gets it. same as now. it's powerful when you're standing around other people, they don't have to benefit from a specific stat set like with zeke's because defensive stats are universally applicable, it's just a total default item. It does nothing specifically good in the game except be 'more' because the game will be better with 'more'.
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On July 16 2013 09:46 onlywonderboy wrote:
Seems like a bit of a drastic change in the middle of the season. This strikes me more as something they would try in per-season 4.
Yeah; I find it weird that they want to do all these changes before season 4.
Unless they want Worlds to be a crapshoot, so higher chance for NA teams #believetheconspiracy.
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On July 16 2013 09:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. There's still no compelling reason to wait for a support to have 2700 gold before you have Locket when you could have it way earlier on a jungler or top laner.
No, but it's still more achievable for the jungler as well which will largely have the same effect of increasing options. With less passive gain provided by the item and more MR options (including budget ones) it becomes less vital to complete asap.
I saw supports getting Bulwark in solo Q as it was. If Locket isn't as vital a mid game item it can be the item that the support works towards. Emblem is amazing in the laning phase, Aegis has a relatively smooth build path and the Locket active is at its most effective post 15-20 mins anyway.
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On July 16 2013 09:51 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:44 Amarok wrote:
Personally I don't mind most of the changes. It means laners need to make more choices in terms of defenses because there is less passive defense provided by Bulwark. The locket/aegis combo is a more achievable item for a support which frees up the build paths of junglers (which in turn allows for more options at champ select for junglers and laners).
I'm actually surprised there's that much of an uproar about it. I don't see how a change like this suddenly make a support player suddenly go "Well, time to start buying Ohmwrecker/Banner of Command/Eleisa's Miracle because they removed Bulwark and changed Locket!" Supports are still going to gravitate to a strict item build that's the most efficient defensively and with the stats-wise (so long as the stats are relevant) because of how gold poor they are. When you're poor, you don't have the luxury to go buying fancy special items. You just get the core that always works. Besides, in competitive games since when do Support finish any full item before 30 min (if even ever in a game?).
I was more thinking that the support would be more likely to pick up the Aegis/Locket, freeing up the jungler to builld something more synergistic with their champion. Ohmwrecker/BoC and Miracle are clusterfuck failures and removing Bulwark won't change that.
I think we all need to agree something needed to change for jungler itemization though. Bulwark/Golem on every champion was boring as hell.
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I whined a bit about Yi in the past and how I felt he was too squishy to really use as a jungle. But taking away AP Yi removes a style of play from the game forever. His animations are good except for ult though.
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EPT
