EPTShe can build all tanky stuff and not feel bad about it, she's safer from behind since she's ranged, she's not reliant on flash to engage, her ult can't be interrupted, and she provides similar CC.
[Patch 3.09: Spirit Guard Udyr Patch] General Discussion -…
| Forum Index > LoL General |
|
Ketara
United States15065 Posts
She can build all tanky stuff and not feel bad about it, she's safer from behind since she's ranged, she's not reliant on flash to engage, her ult can't be interrupted, and she provides similar CC. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:57 Slayer91 wrote: yeah everyone forgot about galio he's still stronk against double aps this his w gives him enough armour to be fine against adcs for a short period of time he gets in range of them People like him against double AP because of the "damage scaling off MR aspect" but honestly he's probably even more punishing against diving melees (bruisers/assassins) because having a 550 range circle around the guy where you could just get roped into the middle tends to make it quite hard to dive. Ranged champs are fine because they just attack him from where they are, but having 2-3 melees run straight to the center to hit him clumps them all together for any follow-up spells available. Functionally it's the equivalent of Enigma's Black Hole from DotA, hamstrung by the same weakness of being tied to a prohibitively long CD (Flash in this case, not the spell's own CD). EDIT: He's also probably somewhat affected by the greater availability of Tenacity than there was when he came out. On July 14 2013 01:33 Ketara wrote: She can build all tanky stuff and not feel bad about it, she's safer from behind since she's ranged, she's not reliant on flash to engage, her ult can't be interrupted, and she provides similar CC. She has no CC on par with Galio ult, all her multi-target CC is soft (slows/roots)--her only hard disable is single-target, and should often be used on herself. This is an enormous difference because you can counter-fight into slows and roots even if you can't run. You can't counter-fight into hard CC unless you're all alive when it's over. | ||
|
UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:54 Shikyo wrote: Well so we could discuss the merits of Wits end/sunfire the logic should be obvious but yeah, sunfire gives armor and hp, wits end gives magic resist(you can keep it stacked to full via minions easily). Both items deal magic dmg, wits end removes 25 magic resist. Mainly for champions who deal primarily magic / onhit dmg(shyvana etc) The big disincentive for wits is that the buildup is horrible, you really don't get shit until you finish it. Feel the same way about mallet with how bad phage is, and in fact it bothers me about trinity as well - usually I leave the recipe for phage alone and just buy sheen, ruby crystal, long sword and zeal first. | ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
| ||
|
SagaZ
France3460 Posts
My impresion of the strat is you might have problems in a 2v1 situation cause when you go help defend the solo turret as the.jungler you will only be lvl2 and lacking a buff. You want blue to spam all your shit.to destroy waves and red to keep the enemy laners honest with the threat of pouncing on them. On the flip side 1v2s frees mids of potential jungle ganks whitch alows them to play agresively... Perfect if you started with a buff. So i guess that if you feel you can delay.your sidelane tower from falling long enought and your mid is able to transform his advantage into something for the team, it might be good. But failure to do so will result in a big lose of mapcontrol early. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 14 2013 02:25 Slayer91 wrote: galios damage tends to be quite useless against bruisers though unless you're really fed Galio's damage tends to be unimpressive off 1v2 farm regardless, which is the scenario I'd envision him getting picked into a lot of the time (seeing as he is quite good at it). The Tenacity point is valid, particularly given, again, how it's so much easier to buy Tenacity now. | ||
|
Ketara
United States15065 Posts
One of the things I see as strongest about the buff>buff clear is it really gives you a lot of versatility as to where you are on the map at what time. It doesn't matter which buff you do first on the majority of junglers, so if you need to be in top lane it's not hard to do that. With the buff transfer, since you're always going buff>camp>camp>small lizards, you basically can't be around top lane at 3 minutes unless you want to sit at level 2. So there are potentially top lane matchups where you wouldn't want to do it. We haven't had a test game where the enemy team laneswapped against us yet. If we ever had 10 people for testing we could try it. Edit: It'd be interesting to see if you went say, red > wraiths > double golems, how many minions you'd need from top lane to hit 3. | ||
|
SagaZ
France3460 Posts
| ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
| ||
|
nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
| ||
|
Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 14 2013 02:41 SagaZ wrote: It s hard to go top without bluebuff in 1v2 cause without the infinite mana to shove back you re just going to be another sitting duck under the tower This depends on a lot of junglers. Some don't need mana to shove (Zac, Shyvana etc) Did a couple customs. If you're blue side you'll be donating red and you'll have blue to help shove in a 1v2 situation anyway. If you're red side you'll be a jungler that we feel doesn't need blue like Zac if you're doing the strategy. Red > Wraiths > Double golems + 1 minion gets you to level 3. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 14 2013 02:42 onlywonderboy wrote: I know I'm a little late to the party on this one, but I'd like to say I think we get a little to caught up in the hyperbole when we say Riot's bad at balancing. Sure, they don't balance things the way they like, they are too quick to swing the nerf bat, they overnerf champs, they nerf "toxic" things that are up for debate and some other questionable shit. I just listed a lot of things we disagree with, but overall League of Legends as a whole game is fairly balanced. I know a lot of people disagree with how Riot balances champs, but bringing down champs to a weaker power level is just how Riot has decided they want to balance the game and they are consistent with that philosophy. I guess my overall point is LoL isn't nearly as poorly balanced as everyone makes it out to be. Of course that's a matter of opinion so I guess everyone is free to disagree haha. I mean that's the thing, right? The game really is pretty balanced, so there's not a whole lot of reason to touch the game as often as they do. There's nothing outrageously out of the line that would overly affect the playerbase if Riot really just stepped back and really waited and evaluated for a couple months, and the level of fine-tuning they're doing at this point is such that if they don't do this, they won't see enough impact on a given set of changes within the short period of time between patches to make a proper assessment. | ||
|
Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 14 2013 03:18 TheYango wrote: I mean that's the thing, right? The game really is pretty balanced, so there's not a whole lot of reason to touch the game as often as they do. There's nothing outrageously out of the line that would overly affect the playerbase if Riot really just stepped back and really waited and evaluated for a couple months, and the level of fine-tuning they're doing at this point is such that if they don't do this, they won't see enough impact on a given set of changes within the short period of time between patches to make a proper assessment. Except later today we're going to see somebody say "Why aren't they nerfing X already." You don't like the way they balance the game. We get it. They're not going to change. Stop talking about it, talk about something constructive instead of derailing the thread uselessly. | ||
|
Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Here's an example from a game I played yesterday (blind pick T_T) of move speeds at lvl 1+original buy and how much of an advantage I had in speed. The (X) numbers are the advantage difference. Also the other Nasus had 21 utility (no boots opening) and Teemo opened boots. My Team Nasus (Me) - 403 MS Teemo - 360 MS (+43) Soraka - 347 MS (+56) Rengar - 345 MS (+58) Zed - 345 MS (+58) Enemy Team Nasus (not me) - 365 MS (+38) Xerath - 340 MS (+63) Malphite - 335 MS (+68) Vayne - 330 MS (+73) Thresh - 335 MS (+68) The early ganks are BRUTAL with that much of a MS difference, would really love to hear more thoughts on it however. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 14 2013 03:28 Ketara wrote: Except later today we're going to see somebody say "Why aren't they nerfing X already." You don't like the way they balance the game. We get it. They're not going to change. Stop talking about it, talk about something constructive instead of derailing the thread uselessly. I don't know which GD you've been reading, but balance discussions tend to be on the more constructive side of things that actually get discussed in this thread. At least it's actually LoL-related. EDIT: I'm actually very curious what discussion you expected to get out of the buff transfer discussion. The nature of it is that it's so disjoined from anyone's normal gameplay experience that it's hard for most people to actually contribute anything to the discussion about it, which is why you've gotten so few replies. Even the ones that do reply are more or less people responding with their theorycraft and you addressing/debunking that because you've actually played the strategy out, so it ends up being incredibly one-sided. | ||
|
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 14 2013 03:18 TheYango wrote: I mean that's the thing, right? The game really is pretty balanced, so there's not a whole lot of reason to touch the game as often as they do. There's nothing outrageously out of the line that would overly affect the playerbase if Riot really just stepped back and really waited and evaluated for a couple months, and the level of fine-tuning they're doing at this point is such that if they don't do this, they won't see enough impact on a given set of changes within the short period of time between patches to make a proper assessment. I know patches used to be more frequent, but I'm pretty happy with the current patch cycle/new champion release. I know you think a month is a little too fast, but I think it gave pro players (at least in OGN) enough time to take in the patch and explore what was strong. Idk I was getting kind of tired seeing Kennen and Jayce, but I guess your hope is that in another month someone would find a composition that countered these champs on their own. I have my doubts this would happen, but that might be because Riot has already babied pros too much with their patch cycle policies, On July 14 2013 03:36 NeoIllusions wrote: Yango theorycrafts more and better than 90% of TL LoL and doto. When he suggests something to get nerfed or buffed, I usually listen to hear why. I don't know why you think it's not constructive. If anything, if there's something that he thinks needs nerfing, I usually want to go play it on live. l0l Let's not get carried away and assume everyone who criticizes Riot/balance is bad. You can discuss balance with a level-head. I certainly think there are people on this forum that go too far with complaining about Riot's balance policy, Yango is not one of them lol. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Let's not get carried away and assume everyone who criticizes Riot/balance is bad. You can discuss balance with a level-head. | ||
|
JonGalt
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
That being said, a lot of it is on the players. People see nerfs and say "unplayable" instead of "how can I build/itemize/skill X character given the changes. The amount of innovation in LoL (by the playerbase) seems to be much smaller (at a competitive level) than other games. I feel like the LCS is structured for innovation (only need top 6? ezpz) but a lot of teams don't take advantage of it. THAT being said. We are seeing a little more lately with TSM and CLG in the past week of LCS. I just want the playerbase try different things AND be open to it. LoL (at the competitive levels) seems a bit close minded. | ||
|
nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
| ||
|
obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On July 14 2013 03:28 Ketara wrote: Except later today we're going to see somebody say "Why aren't they nerfing X already." You don't like the way they balance the game. We get it. They're not going to change. Stop talking about it, talk about something constructive instead of derailing the thread uselessly. I would say talking about it does make Riot not nerf as much as they'd like. The Riot balance team tries to nerf as much as it can because they think something needs balancing. Every update in PBE is something that Riot has the full intent to actually push through to the next Patch. When the community disagrees Riot takes that input and reduces the nerfs. Another note: it is much easier for Riot to objectively see what the changes are in every patch than it is for us to see. Riot testers can just make sandbox maps to test out the change in burst on the new Jayce whereas we can't do that. We either need a willing participant to play with us, or two computers, and doing these kinds of tests takes time to farm up items. The disadvantage for Riot is that they have fewer people to test with. On July 14 2013 03:28 Diamond wrote: So I have been messing around with the Trick2g boots+4pots/21 utility jungle opening. I like it a lot. I used to run 21 utility back in early S3 and always thought it was the optimal way to jungle. So many good jungle stats in that tree. What I was always missing was the early game which boots solves. Has anyone else been working on this, curious what you think? I think it's the best way to jungle, it's pretty damn easy to get 50+ more MS than ur opps which is the S2 Boots vs No Boots advantage. Been mainly playing with Nasus and Maokai while testing this out. Here's an example from a game I played yesterday (blind pick T_T) of move speeds at lvl 1+original buy and how much of an advantage I had in speed. The (X) numbers are the advantage difference. Also the other Nasus had 21 utility (no boots opening) and Teemo opened boots. My Team Nasus (Me) - 403 MS Teemo - 360 MS (+43) Soraka - 347 MS (+56) Rengar - 345 MS (+58) Zed - 345 MS (+58) Enemy Team Nasus (not me) - 365 MS (+38) Xerath - 340 MS (+63) Malphite - 335 MS (+68) Vayne - 330 MS (+73) Thresh - 335 MS (+68) The early ganks are BRUTAL with that much of a MS difference, would really love to hear more thoughts on it however. The boots themselves only give you a 25 movespeed advantage while you clear slower and take more damage than traditional machete openings. Late game you are still weaker due to lack of defensive/offensive masteries. And your ganks probably aren't that much stronger considering you do less damage. | ||
| ||
