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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I don't think I've ever seen an LCS jungler take the second blue buff unless their mid is somebody who just straight up doesn't need it? We've only done it with Udyr in one game so far, and I don't play him, but the report was that it didn't slow him down much at all. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23434 Posts
doesnt mean i think its always the optimal play depending on chance of said mid feeding to a gank and how much roaming he can do if he has blue also about chances of them trying to invade or smite steal blue you wont have problems without blue but you also wont dominate early on because you are very mana constricted and can either gank or farm, with blue you can farm and then rush to top and spam all your spells and get kills in situations you woludn't with mana constrictions On July 13 2013 11:36 Ketara wrote: OK 6 games tested today. Game 1 - Passed blue to Ryze, Udyr jungle. Udyr reported no problems. Ryze was ahead (vs. Janna) and decided to tower dive and got killed. Oh well. Game 2 - Passed blue to Ryze, Zac jungle. Zac reported no problems. Ryze was ahead (vs. Annie) and decided to tower dive and got killed. Sylverfire not allowed to have blue at level 1 anymore. Both of these games Sylver said it felt really good on Ryze, he just went too HAM. Game 3 - Passed blue to Lux, Lee jungle. Lee reported no problems. Lux absolutely dominated Kassadin, kept a double CS lead the entire game despite only killing him once. Game 4 - Game 4 was sort of a wash because we had 2 disconnects and couldn't execute the strategy. Game 5 - Passed red to Lux, Sejuani jungle. Sejuani reported no problems. Lux vs. Morgana got an early CS lead, and while couldn't kill Morg, was able to stay just a little bit ahead throughout the game. Game 6 - Passed red to Jayce, Nunu jungle. Nunu reported no problems. Jayce said he would have preferred blue, but still did reasonably well early game despite being ganked several times. All in all basically what we've found is that as long as you take a jungler who doesn't need both buffs (Jarvan, Xin etc), the jungler never reports feeling behind even in the slightest. Mid lane regardless of matchup always seems to be at minimum slightly ahead, and at best completely dominates the lane. One note we found is that it's really important that the mid laner take armor runes even if they wouldn't normally, so that they don't take too much damage doing the buff. jaravn and xin are both dominant early game junglers who are mana intensive to clear and red intensive to gank lee is also an early game focused jungler and often wants the blue buff to invade early on | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
But like, explain why you think the transfer strat is a bad idea. We've tested it in 30-40 games now. The jungler hits level 3 within 10 seconds of a normal clear, and in 100% of games tells us they don't even notice the lost buff. The mid laner the buff is donated to in 100% of games says they feel like they're ahead, even when they're Sylverfire and let it go to their head and tower dive and immediately die with the thing (lol). We've been invaded doing it and found that it seems more resiliant to jungle invades than a conventional clear. We've done it with buff steals and found that that works great too. So what's the problem? | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23434 Posts
if you get invaded on red and transfer your blue your jungler is totally fucked also how does xp share work on buff transfer? Do you hit like level 2 after wolves? also if you a path that clears wolves and wraiths before doing red you have a chance of red steal, or otherwise if thats not a problem you can easily reach level 4 with blue wolves wraiths red wraiths instead of blue red and probably be level 4 10 seconds after your jungler hits level 3 (with no easy way to quickly farm that gap up) Also if they see mid gets blue, it opens up invade possibility on the other buff since you won't be level 2 unless you clear other camps which leaves time to kill red with smite. This CAN be offset by warding and having a mid laner with blue buff invade but im unsure of whether a level 1 blue buff is enuogh of a lead (thought I guess you can push fast for level 2 if you really wanted to get there in time) also theres the added double edged sword of mid pressing just getting ganked by a super high commital gank (double flash) because they get the blue buff its going to be worth it though its also likely jungler can feed double buffs thats because of high risk ganks and high risk ganks usually means counterganks by a double buff enemy jungler and the slower and more behind your jungle is the less of a risk it is. for example a level 4 udyr with pheonix at level 2 might do 125 damage with the phoenix AoE and 160 with 2x procs from havaing a shorter cd, while a level 3 without blue might just do 75+40 which is nearly a 200 damage gap which can easily make a difference between killing their jungler and dying yourself (not to mention shorter cd on turtle and bear for the second stun and having mana to spam turtle on camps to keep your health high) I can just as easily suggest tests where you dont hand off any buffs and say mid lane reported no problems meanwhiel jungle felt he had an advantage and can use it to gank all 3 lanes instead of presuring just one I mean ive had buffs stolen before and ive recovered in farm by just farming but ive never gon 3-0 and dinged 6 in <6 minutes like i have with a standard clear and a good countergank or w/e | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
On July 13 2013 19:55 Shikyo wrote: Probably because of the 1 extra level thing. If they scaled normally I don't really see problems. Jayce was an asshole anyway. Lose every lane vs him and even when I'm winning hard and like 3 levels ahead he can still freefarm Agreed Many games I have shit all over jayce and he still gets his farm in and saves his tower all game he needs to be nerfed more. I have played against both kennen and jayce alot since the nerfs and kennen seems much more balenced but both playing and playing against jayce I feel he's still to easymode in the lane. And the tear nerf I feel effects champs like nidalee singed and yorick way more then jayce. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On July 13 2013 22:54 Slayer91 wrote:you'll have trouble finding a real jungler who even thinks its good to transfer off 2nd blue a lot of the time, let alone first Just because people are stubborn as hell and slow to change doesn't mean it won't be seen. Honestly, Cloud 9 giving red buff to Hai on Zed, Jayce, Twisted Fate, or Kennen would be terrifying if they managed to get a 1v1 situation. Although I suppose teams are finally starting to ban Zac so Meteos can't play him. If something is strong enough, people will start doing it. I can't recall anyone in NA laneswapping that often in season 2, now it's 90% of the games. Why? Because if you do it intelligently, it gives you a huge advantage, and if you don't at least take the possibility into account you're pretty much throwing the game away on a competitive level. I haven't been around for most of the tests, but I know if I walk to lane with red buff as Renekton in a 1v1 situation, their jungler is going to camp me, I'm going to be 30-40 cs ahead of my opponent 10 minutes in, or I'm just going to murder them repeatedly. I can already do that without red buff and a fast level 2, but the potential for dominating the lane from so stupidly simple just makes me drool. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23434 Posts
(since what i tend to play e.g nasus irelia udyr trundle all rape him later on if you dont feed early to a jungle dive but get pushed early I don't know exactly who he maintains leads against though) typically the risks of playing agressive on a strong laner tends to be the risk of being ganked, having a buff typically has less of an impact that having a jungler who is equally strong as theirs so he can come to your lane if you are going to try to claim an advantage | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:23 zer0das wrote: Just because people are stubborn as hell and slow to change doesn't mean it won't be seen. Honestly, Cloud 9 giving red buff to Hai on Zed, Jayce, Twisted Fate, or Kennen would be terrifying if they managed to get a 1v1 situation. Although I suppose teams are finally starting to ban Zac so Meteos can't play him. If something is strong enough, people will start doing it. I can't recall anyone in NA laneswapping that often in season 2, now it's 90% of the games. Why? Because if you do it intelligently, it gives you a huge advantage, and if you don't at least take the possibility into account you're pretty much throwing the game away on a competitive level. I haven't been around for most of the tests, but I know if I walk to lane with red buff as Renekton in a 1v1 situation, their jungler is going to camp me, I'm going to be 30-40 cs ahead of my opponent 10 minutes in, or I'm just going to murder them repeatedly. I can already do that without red buff and a fast level 2, but the potential for dominating the lane from so stupidly simple just makes me drool. Kennen with red sounds real strong, since he's relatively safer from ganks (compared to say, Ryze with early blue  )From what I saw of the tests, the strat seems conclusively in the category of "viable, depending on matchups/players involved". @t.r.o.l.l.s. Are the further tests just to narrow down champions and compositions that it works with? Because I think that it still relies heavily on the players involved knowing how to adjust to the new lane dynamics. While the junglers haven't been reporting many problems (expected result on Sejuani, Nunu, etc.), I think the games were the opponents adjusted to the early lane buff are the most useful/indicative of a more coordinated team game outcome. For the purpose of science, I wonder if you'd get useful data from telling the other team right off the bat "we are giving X buff to Y laner at level 1" and seeing what they do  | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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Vanka
China1336 Posts
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On July 13 2013 11:33 ComaDose wrote: I made a build for hec, its called the speedy double fist. spirit of golem -> speedy shoes -> IBG tenacity and slow reduction and speedy and cool down and health and health regen and mana and mana regen and armour and IBG passive. I like to play hec as the tanky initiator so im not that worried about doing dmg and i think spirit of lizard is over rated on him. hmm no one commented on this. can anyone tell me why its bad? or give me reasons to go spirit of lizard? | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:06 Slayer91 wrote: + Show Spoiler + if you get invaded on your blue you cant transfer beacuse of risk of smite steal unless you fight them off or something (irrelevant to strat) if you get invaded on red and transfer your blue your jungler is totally fucked also how does xp share work on buff transfer? Do you hit like level 2 after wolves? also if you a path that clears wolves and wraiths before doing red you have a chance of red steal, or otherwise if thats not a problem you can easily reach level 4 with blue wolves wraiths red wraiths instead of blue red and probably be level 4 10 seconds after your jungler hits level 3 (with no easy way to quickly farm that gap up) Also if they see mid gets blue, it opens up invade possibility on the other buff since you won't be level 2 unless you clear other camps which leaves time to kill red with smite. This CAN be offset by warding and having a mid laner with blue buff invade but im unsure of whether a level 1 blue buff is enuogh of a lead (thought I guess you can push fast for level 2 if you really wanted to get there in time) also theres the added double edged sword of mid pressing just getting ganked by a super high commital gank (double flash) because they get the blue buff its going to be worth it though its also likely jungler can feed double buffs thats because of high risk ganks and high risk ganks usually means counterganks by a double buff enemy jungler and the slower and more behind your jungle is the less of a risk it is. for example a level 4 udyr with pheonix at level 2 might do 125 damage with the phoenix AoE and 160 with 2x procs from havaing a shorter cd, while a level 3 without blue might just do 75+40 which is nearly a 200 damage gap which can easily make a difference between killing their jungler and dying yourself (not to mention shorter cd on turtle and bear for the second stun and having mana to spam turtle on camps to keep your health high) I can just as easily suggest tests where you dont hand off any buffs and say mid lane reported no problems meanwhiel jungle felt he had an advantage and can use it to gank all 3 lanes instead of presuring just one I mean ive had buffs stolen before and ive recovered in farm by just farming but ive never gon 3-0 and dinged 6 in <6 minutes like i have with a standard clear and a good countergank or w/e Slayer, I think you might have misinterpreted their strategy. From your objections, it looks like you think the path is blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> transfer red. What's actually happening is that at both buff camps are taken simultaneously with a 3/2 split at 1:55, with the transferred camp leaving the 2 small lizards for timing/leveling purposes. Does that address your concerns? | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:06 Slayer91 wrote: if you get invaded on your blue you cant transfer beacuse of risk of smite steal unless you fight them off or something (irrelevant to strat) if you get invaded on red and transfer your blue your jungler is totally fucked also how does xp share work on buff transfer? Do you hit like level 2 after wolves? also if you a path that clears wolves and wraiths before doing red you have a chance of red steal, or otherwise if thats not a problem you can easily reach level 4 with blue wolves wraiths red wraiths instead of blue red and probably be level 4 10 seconds after your jungler hits level 3 (with no easy way to quickly farm that gap up) Also if they see mid gets blue, it opens up invade possibility on the other buff since you won't be level 2 unless you clear other camps which leaves time to kill red with smite. This CAN be offset by warding and having a mid laner with blue buff invade but im unsure of whether a level 1 blue buff is enuogh of a lead (thought I guess you can push fast for level 2 if you really wanted to get there in time) also theres the added double edged sword of mid pressing just getting ganked by a super high commital gank (double flash) because they get the blue buff its going to be worth it though its also likely jungler can feed double buffs thats because of high risk ganks and high risk ganks usually means counterganks by a double buff enemy jungler and the slower and more behind your jungle is the less of a risk it is. for example a level 4 udyr with pheonix at level 2 might do 125 damage with the phoenix AoE and 160 with 2x procs from havaing a shorter cd, while a level 3 without blue might just do 75+40 which is nearly a 200 damage gap which can easily make a difference between killing their jungler and dying yourself (not to mention shorter cd on turtle and bear for the second stun and having mana to spam turtle on camps to keep your health high) I can just as easily suggest tests where you dont hand off any buffs and say mid lane reported no problems meanwhiel jungle felt he had an advantage and can use it to gank all 3 lanes instead of presuring just one I mean ive had buffs stolen before and ive recovered in farm by just farming but ive never gon 3-0 and dinged 6 in <6 minutes like i have with a standard clear and a good countergank or w/e None of that makes any sense. You don't share EXP. The jungler hits level 2 on blue buff say (if you're donating red), does wolves and wraiths, then hits level 3 on the red buff small lizards at the same time that the enemy jungler hits level 3 doing the second buff. If you get invaded and lose a buff your jungler is behind regardless, I don't really understand your "invades are bad" point. The invade likely comes before you actually kill the second buff and you can stop it before then if you feel you need to. There's no chance of a red steal because you're taking both buffs at level 1, if the enemy jungler tries to invade your red after his blue he gets there as you're clearing wraiths, has nothing to steal (except double golems), and is behind if he doesn't kill your jungler, which is difficult since you're both level 2 and your mid is a level ahead of their mid and has a buff. In fact, in a coordinated game, their jungler would never invade your red, because he'd see your mid laner with it at level 1 and know it's not there anymore. In a lot of our games we see mid lane get camped after he gets the buff. We never see it being a gigantic problem. At worst it makes the lane even again and relieves pressure from top and bot lane. That's something that can happen in a normal game too, a mid laner with a blue buff and a 1 level advantage is better able to deal with it. Our tests show that as far as clear speed goes, if you just clear and don't gank at all, you hit levels 3, 5 and 6 at around the exact same time as if you hadn't donated the buff. The only one you're delayed on is level 4, and that's because the EXP works out to have a weird situation where you're 99% of the way to 4 and have to do 1 more camp to get there. Mid lane on the other hand is consistently 1 level ahead for the early part of the game. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
the logic should be obvious but yeah, sunfire gives armor and hp, wits end gives magic resist(you can keep it stacked to full via minions easily). Both items deal magic dmg, wits end removes 25 magic resist. Mainly for champions who deal primarily magic / onhit dmg(shyvana etc) | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:54 Shikyo wrote: Well so we could discuss the merits of Wits end/sunfire the logic should be obvious but yeah, sunfire gives armor and hp, wits end gives magic resist(you can keep it stacked to full via minions easily). Both items deal magic dmg, wits end removes 25 magic resist. Mainly for champions who deal primarily magic / onhit dmg(shyvana etc) I think the Wits/Sunfire Shyvana combo seems pretty awesome. Anybody tried it yet? Could try it on Mundo too, maybe. | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
On a slight tangent, I've always felt underwhelmed with Aegis on Shen as opposed to Locket. You're not actually contributing to EHP until you finish teleporting, which can often be after their burst rotation. With Locket, the flat HP seems like it would have a greater impact, especially if someone else had an Aegis. The incidental CDR also enables more Stand Uniteds, which has a long enough cooldown for the % reduction to feel significant. | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
Sunfire is a much more 'splashable' item where as the combination of AS and MR on Wit's End makes way more specific in its usage. Problem is, most games where Wit's is good, a Bulwark would probably be a better pickup to complement it on the champs that enjoy Wit's (Shen, Warwick, Udyr) | ||
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