|
On July 30 2013 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 01:15 NpG)Explosive wrote:On July 29 2013 22:54 sylverfyre wrote:On July 29 2013 21:40 Shikyo wrote:
Lich Bane of course, (Ruby) sightstone(>_>), Guardian Angel, Last Whisper, all stacking items, Quicksilver Sash, Sunfire Cape, SotD, Void Staff are all rather inefficient without their passives, GA and the sightstones probably being the biggest offenders
Torment doesn't count the mpen I think so it's not that bad Torment needs its passive badly to be efficient, because the MPen and HP are identical to haunting guise. If you don't need the passive, leave it as a haunting guise until 6 items, then drop the guise for a different item. You get 100 hp when you upgrade. Sorry, my mistake. Still, for over 900 gold just for combine cost, 80% of that cost goes to the passive. Also remember that "efficient" is extremely relative if the item has a stat like HP Regen, Mana Regen, or Mana on it, because the "base item" that LoLwiki compares them to is actually EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT, making nearly anything with those stats on them appear efficient when you compare them to the incredibly inefficient Sapphire Crystals, Rejuv Beads, and Faerie charms.Directly offensive and defensive stats (all the other stats, basically) don't vary nearly as ridiculously in goldcost from item to item.
Just to re-emphasize, the LoLWiki cost-efficiency is totally useless because they don't even use BF Sword or Pickaxe for baseline AD which means all the baseline items are total shit (not to mention any core items used as a baseline), so the efficiency is completely out of context.
It'd be like saying you scored 90 percentile on a test when 50%-tile was scaled to fetuses.
|
Oh man Special Forces Gangplank going to be on sale.
Too bad my GP sucks buttdick.
|
On July 30 2013 03:08 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:On July 30 2013 01:15 NpG)Explosive wrote:On July 29 2013 22:54 sylverfyre wrote:On July 29 2013 21:40 Shikyo wrote:
Lich Bane of course, (Ruby) sightstone(>_>), Guardian Angel, Last Whisper, all stacking items, Quicksilver Sash, Sunfire Cape, SotD, Void Staff are all rather inefficient without their passives, GA and the sightstones probably being the biggest offenders
Torment doesn't count the mpen I think so it's not that bad Torment needs its passive badly to be efficient, because the MPen and HP are identical to haunting guise. If you don't need the passive, leave it as a haunting guise until 6 items, then drop the guise for a different item. You get 100 hp when you upgrade. Sorry, my mistake. Still, for over 900 gold just for combine cost, 80% of that cost goes to the passive. Also remember that "efficient" is extremely relative if the item has a stat like HP Regen, Mana Regen, or Mana on it, because the "base item" that LoLwiki compares them to is actually EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT, making nearly anything with those stats on them appear efficient when you compare them to the incredibly inefficient Sapphire Crystals, Rejuv Beads, and Faerie charms.Directly offensive and defensive stats (all the other stats, basically) don't vary nearly as ridiculously in goldcost from item to item. Just to re-emphasize, the LoLWiki cost-efficiency is totally useless because they don't even use BF Sword or Pickaxe for baseline AD which means all the baseline items are total shit (not to mention any core items used as a baseline), so the efficiency is completely out of context. It'd be like saying you scored 90 percentile on a test when 50%-tile was scaled to fetuses.
At least AD on a longsword vs. AD on a pickaxe or BF sword are kinda close. 40g/AD vs. 34.4g/AD.
+Mana on a Sapphire Crystal compared to +Mana on Rod of Ages or any Tear-based item isn't even comparable. Even Glacial Shroud or Catalyst massively increase the amount of mana you get without really taking it out of the "item budget."
|
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On July 30 2013 03:09 Requizen wrote:
Oh man Special Forces Gangplank going to be on sale.
Too bad my GP sucks buttdick.
You're probably one of those noobs who uses his ult and TP to help the team, it's all about maintaining maximum farm efficiency for ultra profit.
|
lol wiki logic:
Pickaxe
25 AD = 1000 gold
cost = 875 gold
Conclusion: Pickaxe is gold-efficient even without any passive or active abilities.
|
On July 30 2013 03:16 thenexusp wrote:
lol wiki logic:
Pickaxe
25 AD = 1000 gold
cost = 875 gold
Conclusion: Pickaxe is gold-efficient even without any passive or active abilities.
It's gold efficient to buy 5 pickaxes. Wait, no it's not.
It's even stupider when you look at lolwiki logic for a stacked tear. It's worth like 2400 gold! 5 sapphire crystals and a bit more than 2 faerie charms!!
To clarify, my first post was pointing out that Shikyo's statement of "Liandry's Torment is not that [gold inefficient without the passive] because [wikilogic] doesn't count the MPen" is completely wrong because nobody is going to upgrade a Guise into a Liandry if they are only valuing it for the flat MPen.
To analyze gold efficiency properly, you need to do it with a little more subjectivity and look at "will this item add more DPS/ETL than other items for the same gold"
Void Staff and Last Whisper, when picked up after a few other items and in the right situations, are THE MOST GOLD EFFICIENT ITEMS IN THE GAME.
|
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On July 30 2013 03:17 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:16 thenexusp wrote:
lol wiki logic:
Pickaxe
25 AD = 1000 gold
cost = 875 gold
Conclusion: Pickaxe is gold-efficient even without any passive or active abilities. It's gold efficient to buy 5 pickaxes. Wait, no it's not. It's even stupider when you look at lolwiki logic for a stacked tear. It's worth like 2400 gold! 5 sapphire crystals and a bit more than 2 faerie charms!!
So if I get 6 stacked tears I'll have 14400 gold of efficiency for only 4200 gold. Wow I have broken the game!
|
On July 30 2013 03:16 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:09 Requizen wrote:
Oh man Special Forces Gangplank going to be on sale.
Too bad my GP sucks buttdick. You're probably one of those noobs who uses his ult and TP to help the team, it's all about maintaining maximum farm efficiency for ultra profit.
He's like my 3rd or 4th most played, only one in top 5 with a negative ratio.
|
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On July 30 2013 03:22 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:16 Fusilero wrote:On July 30 2013 03:09 Requizen wrote:
Oh man Special Forces Gangplank going to be on sale.
Too bad my GP sucks buttdick. You're probably one of those noobs who uses his ult and TP to help the team, it's all about maintaining maximum farm efficiency for ultra profit. He's like my 3rd or 4th most played, only one in top 5 with a negative ratio.
I had a 35% win rate lulu sticking out like sore thumb on my top 5 played, fortunately my 76.5% win rate janna has finally broken top 5 so now it doesn't look at bad :>
|
On July 30 2013 03:22 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:16 Fusilero wrote:On July 30 2013 03:09 Requizen wrote:
Oh man Special Forces Gangplank going to be on sale.
Too bad my GP sucks buttdick. You're probably one of those noobs who uses his ult and TP to help the team, it's all about maintaining maximum farm efficiency for ultra profit. He's like my 3rd or 4th most played, only one in top 5 with a negative ratio.
Im like a sniper with GP ults, pickin up dem kills on running champs.
Fucking love playing GP.
Im going to play GP.
|
United States47024 Posts
Fundamentally, the problem with regen/mana being valued as they are isn't a cost-efficiency one, but a stat-appropriateness one.
It's simply hard to judge the value of those because while survivability stats are always useful, mana and regen are stats with diminishing usefulness over time. Mana is extremely high value to a champ that's gated by it, but totally useless to one that isn't.
|
On July 30 2013 03:43 TheYango wrote:
Fundamentally, the problem with regen/mana being valued as they are isn't a cost-efficiency one, but a stat-appropriateness one.
It's simply hard to judge the value of those because while survivability stats are always useful, mana and regen are stats with diminishing usefulness over time. Mana is extremely high value to a champ that's gated by it, but totally useless to one that isn't.
Which is also the reason that the "Gold Per Mana" and "Gold Per Mana Regen" relationships aren't linear. Chalice multiplies your regen in addition to adding a flat amount. Tear items not only give you a huge mana pool, but give a secondary purpose to your mana so you don't have to "feel bad" about buying so much mana.
|
On July 30 2013 03:08 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:On July 30 2013 01:15 NpG)Explosive wrote:On July 29 2013 22:54 sylverfyre wrote:On July 29 2013 21:40 Shikyo wrote:
Lich Bane of course, (Ruby) sightstone(>_>), Guardian Angel, Last Whisper, all stacking items, Quicksilver Sash, Sunfire Cape, SotD, Void Staff are all rather inefficient without their passives, GA and the sightstones probably being the biggest offenders
Torment doesn't count the mpen I think so it's not that bad Torment needs its passive badly to be efficient, because the MPen and HP are identical to haunting guise. If you don't need the passive, leave it as a haunting guise until 6 items, then drop the guise for a different item. You get 100 hp when you upgrade. Sorry, my mistake. Still, for over 900 gold just for combine cost, 80% of that cost goes to the passive. Also remember that "efficient" is extremely relative if the item has a stat like HP Regen, Mana Regen, or Mana on it, because the "base item" that LoLwiki compares them to is actually EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT, making nearly anything with those stats on them appear efficient when you compare them to the incredibly inefficient Sapphire Crystals, Rejuv Beads, and Faerie charms.Directly offensive and defensive stats (all the other stats, basically) don't vary nearly as ridiculously in goldcost from item to item. Just to re-emphasize, the LoLWiki cost-efficiency is totally useless because they don't even use BF Sword or Pickaxe for baseline AD which means all the baseline items are total shit (not to mention any core items used as a baseline), so the efficiency is completely out of context. It'd be like saying you scored 90 percentile on a test when 50%-tile was scaled to fetuses.
The issue is that most stats don't have 3 pure items of derive value, so they default to a cheapest metric. Yes, on Longsword you pay a premium for the bitesize amount, and on BF sword you underpay due to the high one stop cost. Rarely does a middle of the road "Pickaxe" exist.
So what do you do for say, armor? Do you use cloth's cost? Chain Vest's? Do you average them?
For Health Regen, you don't have a choice. Rejuvination Bead is all there is, so you have to measure on a premium.
If you make different metrics for different stats, then you have to document them somewhere because somebody will look at armor and go "This doesn't match either of these items." and "This stat is too expensive compared to X stat." The simplest, most effective decision, to deal with this is to cost things at their premium and not their discount. It saves a massive amount of hassle.
|
On July 30 2013 03:24 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:22 Requizen wrote:On July 30 2013 03:16 Fusilero wrote:On July 30 2013 03:09 Requizen wrote:
Oh man Special Forces Gangplank going to be on sale.
Too bad my GP sucks buttdick. You're probably one of those noobs who uses his ult and TP to help the team, it's all about maintaining maximum farm efficiency for ultra profit. He's like my 3rd or 4th most played, only one in top 5 with a negative ratio. I had a 35% win rate lulu sticking out like sore thumb on my top 5 played, fortunately my 76.5% win rate janna has finally broken top 5 so now it doesn't look at bad :>
Lol I have the same thing with <40% winrate on lulu and > 70% on janna. It absolutely baffles me because I dont feel like my lulu play is that terrible... maybe it's just a small sample size despite being in my top 3 most played, or maybe I just secretly suck at Lulu and im too dumb to realize it.
|
On July 30 2013 03:08 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:On July 30 2013 01:15 NpG)Explosive wrote:On July 29 2013 22:54 sylverfyre wrote:On July 29 2013 21:40 Shikyo wrote:
Lich Bane of course, (Ruby) sightstone(>_>), Guardian Angel, Last Whisper, all stacking items, Quicksilver Sash, Sunfire Cape, SotD, Void Staff are all rather inefficient without their passives, GA and the sightstones probably being the biggest offenders
Torment doesn't count the mpen I think so it's not that bad Torment needs its passive badly to be efficient, because the MPen and HP are identical to haunting guise. If you don't need the passive, leave it as a haunting guise until 6 items, then drop the guise for a different item. You get 100 hp when you upgrade. Sorry, my mistake. Still, for over 900 gold just for combine cost, 80% of that cost goes to the passive. Also remember that "efficient" is extremely relative if the item has a stat like HP Regen, Mana Regen, or Mana on it, because the "base item" that LoLwiki compares them to is actually EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT, making nearly anything with those stats on them appear efficient when you compare them to the incredibly inefficient Sapphire Crystals, Rejuv Beads, and Faerie charms.Directly offensive and defensive stats (all the other stats, basically) don't vary nearly as ridiculously in goldcost from item to item. Just to re-emphasize, the LoLWiki cost-efficiency is totally useless because they don't even use BF Sword or Pickaxe for baseline AD which means all the baseline items are total shit (not to mention any core items used as a baseline), so the efficiency is completely out of context. It'd be like saying you scored 90 percentile on a test when 50%-tile was scaled to fetuses.
you are saying "totally useless" when you mean "slightly inflated"
bf sword cost efficiency is irrelevant to anyone who doesnt buy BF swords. Most melee champs want to compare cost efficicency to longswords
|
On July 30 2013 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:08 xes wrote:On July 30 2013 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:On July 30 2013 01:15 NpG)Explosive wrote:On July 29 2013 22:54 sylverfyre wrote:On July 29 2013 21:40 Shikyo wrote:
Lich Bane of course, (Ruby) sightstone(>_>), Guardian Angel, Last Whisper, all stacking items, Quicksilver Sash, Sunfire Cape, SotD, Void Staff are all rather inefficient without their passives, GA and the sightstones probably being the biggest offenders
Torment doesn't count the mpen I think so it's not that bad Torment needs its passive badly to be efficient, because the MPen and HP are identical to haunting guise. If you don't need the passive, leave it as a haunting guise until 6 items, then drop the guise for a different item. You get 100 hp when you upgrade. Sorry, my mistake. Still, for over 900 gold just for combine cost, 80% of that cost goes to the passive. Also remember that "efficient" is extremely relative if the item has a stat like HP Regen, Mana Regen, or Mana on it, because the "base item" that LoLwiki compares them to is actually EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT, making nearly anything with those stats on them appear efficient when you compare them to the incredibly inefficient Sapphire Crystals, Rejuv Beads, and Faerie charms.Directly offensive and defensive stats (all the other stats, basically) don't vary nearly as ridiculously in goldcost from item to item. Just to re-emphasize, the LoLWiki cost-efficiency is totally useless because they don't even use BF Sword or Pickaxe for baseline AD which means all the baseline items are total shit (not to mention any core items used as a baseline), so the efficiency is completely out of context. It'd be like saying you scored 90 percentile on a test when 50%-tile was scaled to fetuses. you are saying "totally useless" when you mean "slightly inflated" bf sword cost efficiency is irrelevant to anyone who doesnt buy BF swords. Most melee champs want to compare cost efficicency to longswords
Even melees actually care far more about the cost efficiency of Doran's Blade, Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, and Bilgewater Cutlass far more than they do about the worst-in-game cost efficiency of a Long Sword.
|
United States47024 Posts
Well, the proper comparison is just directly comparing the two items you're actually interested in, and for that you just need a baseline of some sort. It doesn't matter which one it is because you're never going to just be looking at items in a vacuum.
|
Lulu is like my least played champ that I really enjoy playing. At release she was probably my favorite champ. But now I just always feel confused, or awesome.
First, I don't have split pen Reds, which I suspect are ideal on her. But on top of that, I just think that ADs only know how to play with either Taric, or Janna. The poke/combat Lulu style is just not something they ever have gotten a hang of.
|
I have literally not seen a single taric in months.Do people still play him?You don't need to have hybrid pens.They help but they are not that needed.I have 122 games with lulu and all of em I've ran only armor/armor/mr/gp10 and still can do fine.
|
This makes me think.
5 champs left. Also wanted to buy split pen at some point.
Have 5k IP. Wat do?
(Not like I play anything but bot games atm and have no reason to own every champ other than obsession...split pen first then keep working on champs?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
