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On July 27 2013 03:41 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 03:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 27 2013 03:32 Ketara wrote:
I vastly prefer Morellonomicon to Athenes on Lissandra.
Same CDR and more AP. Athene gives too much mana regen to Liss but Morello is about right, the passive isn't bad, and it costs a lot less.
And since you're building an Abyssal because it's awesome on her, you don't really need the MR unless the enemy team is basically all magic damage. If it was magic mid, magic top and magic jungler I'd prob go for Athenes. I don't think you need that much AP unless you are maxing Q first since thats effectively your lowest damage but highest AP/second damage. the magic resist is far more valuable than the passive from morello on lissandra. So for a similar price buy Morellos and the Negatron cloak that you're going to build into Abyssal later.
If you are spending that much just to have similar capabilities then Athenes + amp tome is essentially the same cost, and provides more AP and better regen. and the amp tome builds into Zhonyas which is a stronger item for liss than abyssal.
Not to mention the only mids with worse mana pools than lissandra are the manaless ones, and fizz/TF. This means that athenes is more effective on her than others since it boosts her regen much faster and much more off of single spell cycles.
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in response to some comments on lissandra items:
Rod of Ages -- I agree that the health is really good on Liss, especially since there aren't really any other good options for health. I'm not convinced that it's worthwhile to get for the health, rather than getting abyssal/zhonya's/guise which seem like better overall buys for Lissandra even though the defensive stats aren't as ideal. I usually go for either Zhonya's or Abyssal as my first big item, depending on the matchup, but Lissandra seems quite versatile so I don't think there's a single best way to build her (ok well that's true for every champion but especially for Lissandra)
Grail -- I haven't tried getting grail yet but I'm inclined to think there are better options. Personally I'd rather get Morellonomicon + Negatron (although I'd probably actually get Abyssal before Morellonomicon), for only a few hundred more gold.
edit: I guess Grail + amp tome is a fair comparison, but I'm not convinced that Lissandra needs that much mana regen.
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On July 27 2013 03:50 danana wrote:
in response to some comments on lissandra items:
Rod of Ages -- I agree that the health is really good on Liss, especially since there aren't really any other good options for health. I'm not convinced that it's worthwhile to get for the health, rather than getting abyssal/zhonya's/guise which seem like better overall buys for Lissandra even though the defensive stats aren't as ideal. I usually go for either Zhonya's or Abyssal as my first big item, depending on the matchup, but Lissandra seems quite versatile so I don't think there's a single best way to build her (ok well that's true for every champion but especially for Lissandra)
Grail -- I haven't tried getting grail yet but I'm inclined to think there are better options. Personally I'd rather get Morellonomicon + Negatron (although I'd probably actually get Abyssal before Morellonomicon), for only a few hundred more gold.
And i'd rather get Athenes + amp tome for only a few dozen more gold and have more ap the same MRes and double the regen.
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Depends a bit on how much you and your team value the MPen. Elise jungle? Rumble top? Seems nice.
Not to mention with Bulwark on 100% of teams forever and sometimes 2, there's never going to be a negligable amount of MR.
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On July 27 2013 03:54 Requizen wrote:
Depends a bit on how much you and your team value the MPen. Elise jungle? Rumble top? Seems nice.
Not to mention with Bulwark on 100% of teams forever and sometimes 2, there's never going to be a negligable amount of MR.
I'd rather spend my third item on a void staff if i need the Mpen, rather than spending it on abyssal. I'd probably get abyssal if everyone on the other team is going glass cannon though.
once you get athenes/zhonyas/void staff you should be able to kill essentially anything and everything. Morello/zhonyas/abyssal just seems far weaker at that critical mid game timing.
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On July 27 2013 03:44 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 03:41 Ketara wrote:On July 27 2013 03:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 27 2013 03:32 Ketara wrote:
I vastly prefer Morellonomicon to Athenes on Lissandra.
Same CDR and more AP. Athene gives too much mana regen to Liss but Morello is about right, the passive isn't bad, and it costs a lot less.
And since you're building an Abyssal because it's awesome on her, you don't really need the MR unless the enemy team is basically all magic damage. If it was magic mid, magic top and magic jungler I'd prob go for Athenes. I don't think you need that much AP unless you are maxing Q first since thats effectively your lowest damage but highest AP/second damage. the magic resist is far more valuable than the passive from morello on lissandra. So for a similar price buy Morellos and the Negatron cloak that you're going to build into Abyssal later. If you are spending that much just to have similar capabilities then Athenes + amp tome is essentially the same cost, and provides more AP and better regen. and the amp tome builds into Zhonyas which is a stronger item for liss than abyssal.
"Better regen" is not necessarily true.
Regen is an interesting statistic because it's only worth money while it's actually being useful. If you're constantly at 100% mana no matter what, you're effectively paying gold for overkill regen. In fact, I would say it's more accurate to call that worse regen, because you're spending more gold to achieve the same result.
Athenes + Amp Tome is 3035 gold while Morello + Negatron is 2920, which on paper looks similar, but look at how that flows through an actual game.
For starters, the first part of the Morellonomicon you're going to get is the Kage's, which is going to make you somewhere between 1 and 200 gold at least before you finish the thing. I will often grab the Kage's and then not finish the Morellonomicon until after I have both Seekers Armguard and a Negatron Cloak and end up making 3-400 gold off of it.
Secondly, Zhonyas is a great item on Lissandra, but you're going to be getting it either way regardless. Likewise, you're going to be getting an Abyssal anyway regardless, it's just too amazing of an item on her.
So Athenes is only really a consideration if you need 40 more MR past the MR you're getting from Abyssal, which I feel like a lot of the time you just don't. If it's a heavy magic damage comp it makes sense though, or at least that's how I see it.
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I'm not buying abyssal. its not very good.
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United States23745 Posts
Why do pros value Abyssal so high then? Pretty sure Alex Ich rushes it on Liss and a lot of other EU mids get it pretty early. Is it just because they are being team oriented (I can't recall their comp off the top of my head)?
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On July 27 2013 03:58 onlywonderboy wrote:
Why do pros value Abyssal so high then? Pretty sure Alex Ich rushes it on Liss and a lot of other EU mids get it pretty early. Is it just because they are being team oriented (I can't recall their comp off the top of my head)?
When you can coordinate all of your teams big spells with abyssal existing on their targets or running varus/kog it makes more sense. but in pubs lissandra is going to be used immensely more as a kill the divers character. she just stops aggression in its tracks far too well to be used as a character that dives after a carry.
You'll note that abyssal isn't often bought on mids in korea, a far better region than EU. if abyssal is bought its bought on niche champions mid or on top laners.
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On July 27 2013 03:16 Slayer91 wrote:
i dont think riot wants junglers to be a 2nd support in any laneswap game
hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1
Who's going to take second support if not jungle? One of the solo lanes? the ADC?
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On July 27 2013 03:55 Ketara wrote:
For starters, the first part of the Morellonomicon you're going to get is the Kage's, which is going to make you somewhere between 1 and 200 gold at least before you finish the thing. I will often grab the Kage's and then not finish the Morellonomicon until after I have both Seekers Armguard and a Negatron Cloak and end up making 3-400 gold off of it.
So you are buying 0 mana regen for the first 6-10 minutes of the game on the third worst (mana/manaregen wise) middle character in the game.
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On July 27 2013 03:58 onlywonderboy wrote:
Why do pros value Abyssal so high then? Pretty sure Alex Ich rushes it on Liss and a lot of other EU mids get it pretty early. Is it just because they are being team oriented (I can't recall their comp off the top of my head)?
Oh, come on, you're more clever than that.
"Because pros do it" is never a good argument, open up that Excel spreadsheet and do the math!
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On July 27 2013 03:55 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 03:44 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 27 2013 03:41 Ketara wrote:On July 27 2013 03:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 27 2013 03:32 Ketara wrote:
I vastly prefer Morellonomicon to Athenes on Lissandra.
Same CDR and more AP. Athene gives too much mana regen to Liss but Morello is about right, the passive isn't bad, and it costs a lot less.
And since you're building an Abyssal because it's awesome on her, you don't really need the MR unless the enemy team is basically all magic damage. If it was magic mid, magic top and magic jungler I'd prob go for Athenes. I don't think you need that much AP unless you are maxing Q first since thats effectively your lowest damage but highest AP/second damage. the magic resist is far more valuable than the passive from morello on lissandra. So for a similar price buy Morellos and the Negatron cloak that you're going to build into Abyssal later. If you are spending that much just to have similar capabilities then Athenes + amp tome is essentially the same cost, and provides more AP and better regen. and the amp tome builds into Zhonyas which is a stronger item for liss than abyssal. "Better regen" is not necessarily true. Regen is an interesting statistic because it's only worth money while it's actually being useful. If you're constantly at 100% mana no matter what, you're effectively paying gold for overkill regen. In fact, I would say it's more accurate to call that worse regen, because you're spending more gold to achieve the same result. Athenes + Amp Tome is 3035 gold while Morello + Negatron is 2920, which on paper looks similar, but look at how that flows through an actual game. For starters, the first part of the Morellonomicon you're going to get is the Kage's, which is going to make you somewhere between 1 and 200 gold at least before you finish the thing. I will often grab the Kage's and then not finish the Morellonomicon until after I have both Seekers Armguard and a Negatron Cloak and end up making 3-400 gold off of it. Secondly, Zhonyas is a great item on Lissandra, but you're going to be getting it either way regardless. Likewise, you're going to be getting an Abyssal anyway regardless, it's just too amazing of an item on her. So Athenes is only really a consideration if you need 40 more MR past the MR you're getting from Abyssal, which I feel like a lot of the time you just don't. If it's a heavy magic damage comp it makes sense though, or at least that's how I see it.
It also depends when you need the MR and regen, though. Athene's lets you get your MR up front, and gives you greater lane presence by letting you spam Q more. This increases your early trading power a lot more than a Kage's.
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Just to let everyone know lissandra has 200 (+40) mana and 5(+.4) MP5. Which puts her as the worst mid in the game for regen and the third worst for mana pool.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:01 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 03:58 onlywonderboy wrote:
Why do pros value Abyssal so high then? Pretty sure Alex Ich rushes it on Liss and a lot of other EU mids get it pretty early. Is it just because they are being team oriented (I can't recall their comp off the top of my head)? When you can coordinate all of your teams big spells with abyssal existing on their targets or running varus/kog it makes more sense. but in pubs lissandra is going to be used immensely more as a kill the divers character. she just stops aggression in its tracks far too well to be used as a character that dives after a carry. You'll note that abyssal isn't often bought on mids in korea, a far better region than EU. if abyssal is bought its bought on niche champions mid or on top laners.
Fair points. Next time I play Liss I'll have to try out your build and skill order.
On July 27 2013 04:03 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 03:58 onlywonderboy wrote:
Why do pros value Abyssal so high then? Pretty sure Alex Ich rushes it on Liss and a lot of other EU mids get it pretty early. Is it just because they are being team oriented (I can't recall their comp off the top of my head)? Oh, come on, you're more clever than that. "Because pros do it" is never a good argument, open up that Excel spreadsheet and do the math!
I realize that, I just wanted to have a discussion about why a pro who is known for being good at the game (like Alex Ich) would prefer Abyssal over other items. Probably just revolves around team coordination.
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On July 27 2013 04:01 caelym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 03:16 Slayer91 wrote:
i dont think riot wants junglers to be a 2nd support in any laneswap game
hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1
Who's going to take be second support if not jungle? One of the solo lanes? the ADC?
Does there need to be a "second support"? If the jungle was able to get similar gold income to other lanes in a way that isn't viable to laners (that is, not tying it to an item that laners will buy and not tying it to the jungle monsters themselves), then they would remain almost as relevant as a laner.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:06 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 04:01 caelym wrote:On July 27 2013 03:16 Slayer91 wrote:
i dont think riot wants junglers to be a 2nd support in any laneswap game
hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1
Who's going to take be second support if not jungle? One of the solo lanes? the ADC? Does there need to be a "second support"? If the jungle was able to get similar gold income to other lanes in a way that isn't viable to laners (that is, not tying it to an item that laners will buy and not tying it to the jungle monsters themselves), then they would remain almost as relevant as a laner.
That's like asking "do we need an off-tank" in WoW. Sometimes one just isn't enough to soak up all the damage. Having too many glass cannons just increases you chances of someone on your team getting blown up and losing a fight.
Edit: I realize you didn't mention anything about Junglers building damage, but the idea of the Jungle Carry is something that gets brought up a lot in regards to Junglers having equal gold to laners..
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On July 27 2013 04:06 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 04:01 caelym wrote:On July 27 2013 03:16 Slayer91 wrote:
i dont think riot wants junglers to be a 2nd support in any laneswap game
hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1
Who's going to take be second support if not jungle? One of the solo lanes? the ADC? Does there need to be a "second support"? If the jungle was able to get similar gold income to other lanes in a way that isn't viable to laners (that is, not tying it to an item that laners will buy and not tying it to the jungle monsters themselves), then they would remain almost as relevant as a laner.
INevitably there are 5 players on a team. and those players will have different farm priority. 1-5. 1 being the primary farmer 5 the hard support.
the 4 role as riot envisions it somehow has enough gold to play like a 1-3 position player. the only way to compensate for the drastic decrease in farm from lane farm to jungle farm, is to make the 4th position champions stronger with levels or stronger in general. but all that does is make them played in a 1-3 role as far superior to the previous 1-3 roles.
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Maybe Riot wants everyone to play like a 3... that would be boring though.
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On July 27 2013 04:10 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 04:06 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 04:01 caelym wrote:On July 27 2013 03:16 Slayer91 wrote:
i dont think riot wants junglers to be a 2nd support in any laneswap game
hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1
Who's going to take be second support if not jungle? One of the solo lanes? the ADC? Does there need to be a "second support"? If the jungle was able to get similar gold income to other lanes in a way that isn't viable to laners (that is, not tying it to an item that laners will buy and not tying it to the jungle monsters themselves), then they would remain almost as relevant as a laner. That's like asking "do we need an off-tank" in WoW. Sometimes one just isn't enough to soak up all the damage. Having too many glass cannons just increases you chances of someone on your team getting blown up and losing a fight.
No reason a jungler can't be a strong tank, instead of a crappy tank.
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EPT
