EPTOn July 27 2013 01:33 Gahlo wrote:
Only if the discussion happens, at most, once a month.
Only if the discussion happens, at most, once a month.
You're going to turn me into a serial comma killer.
[Patch 3.09: Spirit Guard Udyr Patch] General Discussion -…
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
You're going to turn me into a serial comma killer. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Nice to hear! I honestly haven't seen a lot of Lissandras at my level, though I catch her in pro play every so often. Yeah you know, thinking back I didn't really seem to think she had a mana issue that was out of line with many other mages. Double DRing would likely be enough, though would you still consider Athene's in a lane where you're expecting some AP harassment? Or would you just plan on Abyssal as your first item? On another note, http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/25222-more-on-xerath-xypherous-on-jungle-items-arcane - The jungle discussion here is a decent insight into Riot's philosophy about Jungler problems. Y'know, in Smite, they recently have been messing with junglers. There is this item, Bumba's Mask, that gives you jungle benefits. You heal when killing a jungle monster, you don't split gold or experience with nearby allies when a monster dies, and you have increased mp5 (and previously movement speed) in the jungle. This item singlehandedly made Junglers come back around, when before they were very niche and only a few Gods could jungle. Rather than Machete's small damage boost to jungle monsters, could something similar be implemented on a jungle item? Stat boosts when you're in the "jungle area", such as regen, CDR, or movement speed. Since laners won't hang around in the jungle enough to enjoy the benefits, it could conceivably allow them to grant junglers really nice items with great stats without making them appealing to laners in most situations. Obviously what works in one MOBA will not always work in another, but I think there's room to implement something similar, at least on PBE or in their internal testing. | ||
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fantasticoranges
1327 Posts
1. On your first death, you had 4 potions but were sitting at half health. Diana was half health with 0 potions left, she hit 4 first, and she killed you. This was very preventable. If you have pots, try to stay at full HP for as long as possible. Instead of pushing her out of lane, you died because you didn't maximize your resources. Do this, but at the same time, try not to pot up all the way to 100% hp again, let your natural hp regen do work and save a pot. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On July 27 2013 02:52 Requizen wrote: On another note, http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/25222-more-on-xerath-xypherous-on-jungle-items-arcane - The jungle discussion here is a decent insight into Riot's philosophy about Jungler problems. Y'know, in Smite, they recently have been messing with junglers. There is this item, Bumba's Mask, that gives you jungle benefits. You heal when killing a jungle monster, you don't split gold or experience with nearby allies when a monster dies, and you have increased mp5 (and previously movement speed) in the jungle. This item singlehandedly made Junglers come back around, when before they were very niche and only a few Gods could jungle. Rather than Machete's small damage boost to jungle monsters, could something similar be implemented on a jungle item? Stat boosts when you're in the "jungle area", such as regen, CDR, or movement speed. Since laners won't hang around in the jungle enough to enjoy the benefits, it could conceivably allow them to grant junglers really nice items with great stats without making them appealing to laners in most situations. Obviously what works in one MOBA will not always work in another, but I think there's room to implement something similar, at least on PBE or in their internal testing. I don't think that junglers are in a bad spot. In competitive games, in 2v1 lanes, junglers hardly spend that much time in the jungle. I don't think the jungle cares that mid is taking wraiths when they're busy either pushing or defending or a tower. In standard lanes, the jungler's presence in ganks is worth more than farming, especially around the 7:00 - 14:00 mark. It's not that the jungler is donating farm but that his (or her) time is better spent elsewhere. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23404 Posts
hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1 | ||
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Phunkapotamus
United States496 Posts
On July 27 2013 02:14 Arisen wrote: When you're jungling and one lane is losing hard, what should you do? I've been told alot to snowball other lanes, but I just had a game where i was j4 and we had janna varus vs nami vayne and the vayne got super duper fed. I came bot a few times but she could just tumble away from my slows/knockup/ulti. I ended up getting 1 kill bot, and snowballed mid and top pretty hard. In the end however, even with a uselss jungler and mid/top, the vayne just ended up killing everything forever anyway. This is a tough situation for me. My logic says if the players are bad, dont waste your time trying to help them out and risk feeding the other guy harder. However, with the situation of some champions (akali, hyper carry ADC's, diana, etc) they can just snowball your game really hard. What do you do in these situations? IMO it depends on what the lanes are. I played a game last night where this ChoGath was drunk or something and lost HARD to a Yorick. It was a straight up 1v1 failure too- He didn't get ganked. It was silly because I'm pretty sure that matchup is a farm stalemate slightly in Cho's favor. Anyway, I was jungle Aatrox and I taxed the hell out of his lane when he died ( and even when alive :3 ). I figured it made more sense for that farm to go to me than to have a baby cho by midgame. He could still contribute to teamfights with his abilities, but the numbers were not in line for him to tank until very late game. It ended up working (mostly because our mid Xerath was amazing). The goal was to have his Q initiate plays while he soaks up assist gold to get back into the game. If the losing lane scales well with levels and can still do their "thing" once teamfights hit then I'd say to focus on the other lanes. It's this reason I like having a Malphite on my team @ top. He can be terrible and get 0cs. Yet, it takes only one good ult to redeem the entire laning phase. ("Protect the doublelift" strat) I tend to focus on bot lane since hypercarries are fotm lately. I feel the games seem to swing with bot lane lately. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On July 27 2013 00:48 NeoIllusions wrote: Bjergsen actually joined 4-5 weeks after the start of Spring Split due to age restrictions. Deficio is last starter standing. Ya but he was on the team that qualified, playing in the games, I think that makes him an original starter even if he functionally couldn't perform his role until he turned 17. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:16 Slayer91 wrote: i dont think riot wants junglers to be a 2nd support in any laneswap game hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1 I mean, I can see both sides. Ganking is exciting for junglers, it adds spice to the game for laners, and it's great to watch for ESPORTS. At the same time, it'd be nice to be able to just farm up if there's no need to be ganking. There's plenty of times I'd like to just grab some creeps rather than run from lane to lane, hoping I get enough incidental exp or kills to level up and remain relevant. I don't jungle much anymore anyway, but still. + Show Spoiler + Oh hey random Defiler appears that's neat | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:16 Slayer91 wrote: i dont think riot wants junglers to be a 2nd support in any laneswap game hardly spending any time jungling is exactly what they've wanted to stop since season 1 Honestly I think the biggest problem is number of jungle camps. Comparing it to DotA there is absolutely no way to have the entire jungle cleared or even close to it---farming/ganking is a legitimate choice. Unfortunately the size of the map is a massive limiting factor in this case, though I seem to remember them talking about some sort of a map overhaul for season 4...? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:27 PrinceXizor wrote: Req i think RoA is pretty bad on liss. the utility an general tier items are far stronger. Zhonyas Athenes is phenomenal on lissandra and CDR is pretty needed for W>E>Q which gives her the most utility and damage in fights/ganks. Try grabbing the double cloth early vs ranged or AD and double null magic mantles against stuff like diana that gets to spam crescents at you while you want to be in range to Q auto W auto auto when she gets in range. Double NMM? I can see maybe one for Athenes if you go that route, but would you really just hold another one for laning? Or do you consider Merc's a viable option? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:14 kainzero wrote: I don't think that junglers are in a bad spot. In competitive games, in 2v1 lanes, junglers hardly spend that much time in the jungle. I don't think the jungle cares that mid is taking wraiths when they're busy either pushing or defending or a tower. In standard lanes, the jungler's presence in ganks is worth more than farming, especially around the 7:00 - 14:00 mark. It's not that the jungler is donating farm but that his (or her) time is better spent elsewhere. IMO that is the unspoken, and possibly unrealized problem for Riot. A failed gank, or simply standing in the middle of the lane is more worthwhile for a jungler (assuming your lanes are not terrible) than farming is. I mean, it is one thing if Maokai and Lee camp lanes, but when even Nocturne and Nasus also are doing it. Dumb. Riot just needs to calculate the average EXP and gold a gank is worth to the ganking team, something like: (Gank Gold+ minions gained + minions denied + exp gained + exp denied)*(%chance of kill) + (minions gained + minions denied + exp gained + exp denied)*(chance of zoning in favor of laner). Jungle camps need to give at least close to that value, or farming is kinda worthless. I'm no expert, but I would guess the value of lane pressure is probably like 150-200 gold/30s, which is a lot higher than farming. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:21 Requizen wrote: I mean, I can see both sides. Ganking is exciting for junglers, it adds spice to the game for laners, and it's great to watch for ESPORTS. At the same time, it'd be nice to be able to just farm up if there's no need to be ganking. There's plenty of times I'd like to just grab some creeps rather than run from lane to lane, hoping I get enough incidental exp or kills to level up and remain relevant. I don't jungle much anymore anyway, but still. + Show Spoiler + Oh hey random Defiler appears that's neat Well, when's the last time you ran from lane to lane and there were no camps because everyone took everything from you? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:29 Requizen wrote: Double NMM? I can see maybe one for Athenes if you go that route, but would you really just hold another one for laning? Or do you consider Merc's a viable option? Merc is pretty viable.since if you can have the majority if not all disables <2 seconds then you can E as you are going to be disabled and mash dat button and escape literally every time. Not to mention that in terms of cost -> value NMM works really well at mitigating that laning harrass quite a bit, and if you don't need mercs against the team, its not like you need to fill your slots up early at all. so keeping it around can help if you decide to build GA later, or just decide until you need to sell it. its worth the 160 gold cost to have a far more powerful laning phase. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Same CDR and more AP. Athene gives too much mana regen to Liss but Morello is about right, the passive isn't bad, and it costs a lot less. And since you're building an Abyssal because it's awesome on her, you don't really need the MR unless the enemy team is basically all magic damage. If it was magic mid, magic top and magic jungler I'd prob go for Athenes. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:24 WaveofShadow wrote: Honestly I think the biggest problem is number of jungle camps. Comparing it to DotA there is absolutely no way to have the entire jungle cleared or even close to it---farming/ganking is a legitimate choice. Unfortunately the size of the map is a massive limiting factor in this case, though I seem to remember them talking about some sort of a map overhaul for season 4...? Yango had a pretty nice idea about this. Making monsters spawn in the dead buff camps. This not only gives more camps to farm but also lets the offlaner(1v2er) to have somewhere to farm while it's too unsafe to venture into lane. That's generally how Dota offlaners do it as well which allows them to stay relevant | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:31 kainzero wrote: Well, when's the last time you ran from lane to lane and there were no camps because everyone took everything from you? Even when there are, it feels less useful to stop and get wolves/wraiths/golems than it is to just pop your head into a lane and put some damage on an enemy or tower. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:32 Ketara wrote: I vastly prefer Morellonomicon to Athenes on Lissandra. Same CDR and more AP. Athene gives too much mana regen to Liss but Morello is about right, the passive isn't bad, and it costs a lot less. And since you're building an Abyssal because it's awesome on her, you don't really need the MR unless the enemy team is basically all magic damage. If it was magic mid, magic top and magic jungler I'd prob go for Athenes. I don't think you need that much AP unless you are maxing Q first since thats effectively your lowest damage but highest AP/second damage. the magic resist is far more valuable than the passive from morello on lissandra. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:34 Requizen wrote: Even when there are, it feels less useful to stop and get wolves/wraiths/golems than it is to just pop your head into a lane and put some damage on an enemy or tower. Not necessarily. Your lack of presence on the minimap establishes more map control than when you are on the minimap. Anyway, I still don't see the problem with junglers other than Riot wanting to enforce a meta. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 27 2013 03:38 PrinceXizor wrote: I don't think you need that much AP unless you are maxing Q first since thats effectively your lowest damage but highest AP/second damage. the magic resist is far more valuable than the passive from morello on lissandra. So for a similar price buy Morellos and the Negatron cloak that you're going to build into Abyssal later. | ||
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