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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:14 cLutZ wrote: No reason a jungler can't be a strong tank, instead of a crappy tank. I edited my comment for clarity. I guess I just don't really care to see a Jungler coming out of the Jungle with Sunfire and Randiuns. I like that there's some variation in builds between Top and Jungle. | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
I would personally be okay with having batshit crazy item actives like "the next spell heals target champion for the damage that it would otherwise deal" or something like EMP, or Dispel from Warcraft III (or maybe just Crucible being better on that last point). Or, even something that's lopsided depending on team comp like giving all champions a 50% attack speed debuff for 5 seconds, so that supports can play more tactically with few selfish stats. I think Riot are moving in the right direction with the season 3 changes, but could go farther. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:10 onlywonderboy wrote: That's like asking "do we need an off-tank" in WoW. Sometimes one just isn't enough to soak up all the damage. Having too many glass cannons just increases you chances of someone on your team getting blown up and losing a fight. That's assuming jungler is going to be using that farm to be a glass cannon. If I could play Naut in the jungle knowing that every game I could be getting the same farm as Malph or Shen top, and be as tanky as them late game, I'd be happy. Also, most "carry"/glass cannon junglers tend to have shitty ganks and gank presence. On July 27 2013 04:10 PrinceXizor wrote: INevitably there are 5 players on a team. and those players will have different farm priority. 1-5. 1 being the primary farmer 5 the hard support. the 4 role as riot envisions it somehow has enough gold to play like a 1-3 position player. the only way to compensate for the drastic decrease in farm from lane farm to jungle farm, is to make the 4th position champions stronger with levels or stronger in general. but all that does is make them played in a 1-3 role as far superior to the previous 1-3 roles. That's not necessarily true. If they could create an environment where the jungle provides similar gold/exp as lane but makes it hard/not-lucrative for laners to go in, there's no reason to shift gold out of the laners hands. As for changing junglers to be stronger, there are plenty of champions that are strong junglers but poor laners. Amumu is the old prime example of this, his lane is shit but his jungle is strong aside from his counter jungle weakness. If, for instance (and this is just hypothetical and not what I'm suggesting) they made it so choosing Smite gave you like 15 gp5 as long as you were in the jungle and not lane, then junglers would be rich without sacrificing lane gold. Of course, that might lead to double jungle, which would be.... well pretty fucking funny. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:16 onlywonderboy wrote: I edited my comment for clarity. I guess I just don't really care to see a Jungler coming out of the Jungle with Sunfire and Randiuns. I like that there's some variation in builds between Top and Jungle. I mean that's fair, but it would also allow for something cool like really expensive/strong aura items that cost as much as Randuin's/Sunfire, so one tank can build "greedy" defensive and the other can build "utility" defensive without the need for another Aegis-level item. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
In the next 3 hours, figure out the "best" Blue Corki build. Trinity Force or Iceborne? Black Cleaver or Last Whisper? BotRK yes or no? Lets do some theorycrafting, I don't know how these magical blue builds work. Gogo! | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:17 Requizen wrote: That's not necessarily true. If they could create an environment where the jungle provides similar gold/exp as lane but makes it hard/not-lucrative for laners to go in, there's no reason to shift gold out of the laners hands. As for changing junglers to be stronger, there are plenty of champions that are strong junglers but poor laners. Amumu is the old prime example of this, his lane is shit but his jungle is strong aside from his counter jungle weakness. If, for instance (and this is just hypothetical and not what I'm suggesting) they made it so choosing Smite gave you like 15 gp5 as long as you were in the jungle and not lane, then junglers would be rich without sacrificing lane gold. Of course, that might lead to double jungle, which would be.... well pretty fucking funny. if you make the the xp/gold similar between lane and jungle, then the lanes will want to take jungle. regardless of how valuable you make the jungle, inevitably there will be some role that gets the most gold, and some the least. unless everything is: carry gets 1st most mid/top/jungle all get the same amount (which would take a lot of work to manage) and support gets next to nothing. But that's overall a dumb way of doing things since it'll only serve to impoverish the support more. if the jungler made 3 gold/s for picking smite, i'd put tristana in the jungle with smite and let her farm and tax lanes as much as she wants. and just put a random lane bully with a support to get kills. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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misirlou
Portugal3238 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:17 Requizen wrote: That's assuming jungler is going to be using that farm to be a glass cannon. If I could play Naut in the jungle knowing that every game I could be getting the same farm as Malph or Shen top, and be as tanky as them late game, I'd be happy. Also, most "carry"/glass cannon junglers tend to have shitty ganks and gank presence. That's not necessarily true. If they could create an environment where the jungle provides similar gold/exp as lane but makes it hard/not-lucrative for laners to go in, there's no reason to shift gold out of the laners hands. As for changing junglers to be stronger, there are plenty of champions that are strong junglers but poor laners. Amumu is the old prime example of this, his lane is shit but his jungle is strong aside from his counter jungle weakness. If, for instance (and this is just hypothetical and not what I'm suggesting) they made it so choosing Smite gave you like 15 gp5 as long as you were in the jungle and not lane, then junglers would be rich without sacrificing lane gold. Of course, that might lead to double jungle, which would be.... well pretty fucking funny. Up machete cost to 400 to allow + 2pots but discouraging laners from buying it and making it deal 40truedmg + 40% more dmg to neutral minions (which would get an hp increase to compensate) would allow to increase jungle gold and keep laners out of the jungle for the first 15 mins of the game. edit: misquoted | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:24 PrinceXizor wrote: if you make the the xp/gold similar between lane and jungle, then the lanes will want to take jungle. regardless of how valuable you make the jungle, inevitably there will be some role that gets the most gold, and some the least. unless everything is: carry gets 1st most mid/top/jungle all get the same amount (which would take a lot of work to manage) and support gets next to nothing. But that's overall a dumb way of doing things since it'll only serve to impoverish the support more. if the jungler made 3 gold/s for picking smite, i'd put tristana in the jungle with smite and let her farm and tax lanes as much as she wants. and just put a random lane bully with a support to get kills. Well, a couple things there. First, I'm not saying that you're ever going to get the same gold on every character on a team. That's impossible. But the gold differential between top/mid/marksman and jungle/support, unless the jungler is getting a lot of kills, is often so large it isn't even funny. I'm talking about closing that gap, not eliminating it. It really, really sucks playing a jungler and having those games where you don't get ganks but spend so much time hanging in lanes trying to gank that you have like an SotAG/boots/parts of Bulwark by the time you Cait is finishing her full build. Exaggeration, but you understand where I'm coming from. Second, I don't see anything wrong with your scenario you put forth. While I don't mind the current meta in theoretical terms, I'm tired of seeing it EVERY SINGLE GAME. So the idea of a carry jungler with early game lane bullies in all lanes seems pretty fucking interesting, honestly. | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:20 Ketara wrote: So, TROLLS has a request for you guys. In the next 3 hours, figure out the "best" Blue Corki build. Trinity Force or Iceborne? Black Cleaver or Last Whisper? BotRK yes or no? Lets do some theorycrafting, I don't know how these magical blue builds work. Gogo! This seems harder to balance since SotEL was nerfed, because it seems not as easy for Corki to stay in lane safely with the tear investment as it is for Ez. Also, I don't think missiles proc the muramana bonus damage (do they?), so you need to make up for the damage a little. It seems like early brutalizer is going to be good for the build, and that Trinity is too much of a divestment from where you actually want to go. I feel like this has to be treated as even more utility-oriented than Ezreal, and I don't know if Corki can really duel even with BotRK. Interested in seeing what you guys find out, because the Elder Lizard nerf seems more critical to Blue Corki than Blue Ezreal. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:23 onlywonderboy wrote: When I look at LoL I make a lot of parallels to traditional sports and see each role as a fairly distinct position. To me complaining the Jungler can't get as tanky as a Top laner is like complaining the fullback doesn't usually run as many yards as the halfback. Similar roles with different advantages. Top laners get more gold, Junglers get to put pressure around the map. To be clear, it didn't use to be this way. This is an appeal to tradition, which is sketchy to start with, but it also ignores the fact that the combination of many many jungle changes is what got us here. In season one the jungler was very likely to be a carry and to do just that, carry. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:29 Requizen wrote: Second, I don't see anything wrong with your scenario you put forth. While I don't mind the current meta in theoretical terms, I'm tired of seeing it EVERY SINGLE GAME. So the idea of a carry jungler with early game lane bullies in all lanes seems pretty fucking interesting, honestly. I don't see anything wrong with it either. but it IS shifting the 4 position to be the 1 position. which doesn't exactly change things it just puts the 4 position in a lane splitting xp with the 5. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:10 onlywonderboy wrote: Edit: I realize you didn't mention anything about Junglers building damage, but the idea of the Jungle Carry is something that gets brought up a lot in regards to Junglers having equal gold to laners.. Jungle carry should be an option. Like I said, considering how badly lanes lose without pressure + how sucky smite is in combat, the negative impacts of this are greatly exaggerated. On July 27 2013 04:16 onlywonderboy wrote: I edited my comment for clarity. I guess I just don't really care to see a Jungler coming out of the Jungle with Sunfire and Randiuns. I like that there's some variation in builds between Top and Jungle. Still would be IMO. You just get to pick and choose who gets what item based on champion rather than lane assignment. On July 27 2013 04:24 PrinceXizor wrote: if you make the the xp/gold similar between lane and jungle, then the lanes will want to take jungle. regardless of how valuable you make the jungle, inevitably there will be some role that gets the most gold, and some the least. unless everything is: carry gets 1st most mid/top/jungle all get the same amount (which would take a lot of work to manage) and support gets next to nothing. But that's overall a dumb way of doing things since it'll only serve to impoverish the support more. if the jungler made 3 gold/s for picking smite, i'd put tristana in the jungle with smite and let her farm and tax lanes as much as she wants. and just put a random lane bully with a support to get kills. The solution is not to get gimmicky with lane items or smite. Riot has already tried that, and there is consistent evidence that whatever you do laners will abuse it if it is good enough for the jungler to use a thing. Think about that tiny moment in time at like 3:30ish when the jungler has double buffs, and is stronger than anyone on the map (or at least not significantly weaker). He needs the option, at that point to either A) Use said power and snowball lanes or B) maintain that power level relative to the lanes by farming. Then, when the time comes when the lanes can try to take jungle, the jungler actually has an argument that the farm is just as good on him. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Haiq343
United States2548 Posts
It's also clear that in League and the genre more broadly stacking farm and power onto fewer players is better for the team than generally dispersing it more evenly. Would you rather have a single six-item champ or 3 champs with 2 items? That's largely a product of item scaling/synergy but it's also one that's unlikely to change anytime soon. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On July 27 2013 04:20 Ketara wrote: So, TROLLS has a request for you guys. In the next 3 hours, figure out the "best" Blue Corki build. Trinity Force or Iceborne? Black Cleaver or Last Whisper? BotRK yes or no? Lets do some theorycrafting, I don't know how these magical blue builds work. Gogo! Two main Corki builds TheYango and I have discussed are: - Blade, Blade, SotEL, IBG - Blade, Blade, Sheen, Bruta, BC, IBG Two Doran's Blades is standard but you can obviously skip them if you wind up ahead. Add in Vamp Scepter if you need the sustain, it's always about adapting to your lane and then game overall. afaik, I don't think we've discussed BotRK as an option on Corki. It's somewhat of an awkward buildup for him. | ||
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