[Patch 3.09: Spirit Guard Udyr Patch] General Discussion -…

On July 22 2013 13:11 jaybrundage wrote:

Did you read the article if anyone has a good opinion on it it would be Cloud9 has they have obviously been the leaders in the NA scene. Although I wouldn't discount lack of infrastructure and discipline being factors too.

On July 22 2013 13:28 Navi wrote:
what's he's saying about looking internationally for greater insight into the game (or just broadening horizons in general) is not incorrect but the fact that NA pros haven't been looking at other scenes, at least not in depth, is just due to one thing: they are fucking lazy for professionals if you could have even called them that in the past.

KR and CN have better coaching (lifestyle and dedication if not analysts), infrastructure, etc. There are also a bunch of teenagers willing to take your place if you're complacent in korea, and the coaches and sponsors are willing to make those cuts if people deem it necessary, whereas in NA it tends to be rehashing one old pro for another (although that has also started to change due to new blood infused in LCS).

On July 22 2013 13:16 TheYango wrote:
Actually, I just disagree with the idea that Asian games were inaccessible to NA/EU teams. This might be an argument for the casual viewer, who cares about general accessibility, but not for a progamer. VODs for tournament matches have ALWAYS been available for Chinese/Korean/SEA tournaments. The fact that they have no English-language content is irrelevant to a progamer, and they've by and large always been easy to find on common streaming/video portals that while it's not immediately accessible at first glance, someone who's making a living on the game should easily be able to spend the time and effort locating VODS of tournament games.

On July 22 2013 13:29 wei2coolman wrote:

So you discount my opinion of it; just cuz some C9 guy has opinion on it? what's the point of asking for our thoughts then? lol

On July 22 2013 13:33 jaybrundage wrote:

I asked if you read the article well did you . I am curious about peoples opinion. I also think you misread what i said. I stated i wouldn't discount lack of infrastructure and discipline being a factor for NA not being strong.

On July 22 2013 13:36 3 Lions wrote:

Other than drafting, Yango what would you say are the greatest weaknesses of the Chinese scene? From what I've seen they just seem to be the mechanically skilled region, but this leads to some issues such as extremely non-aggressive (aggressive not really the best word here) gameplay as well as poor picks/bans

On July 22 2013 13:36 wei2coolman wrote:

Shaco. Definitely Shaco.

On July 22 2013 13:16 Slusher wrote:
best penta miss I've ever seen is my friend almost got his first penta at like lvl15 and accidentally tumbled backwards on Vayne

On July 22 2013 13:38 Arisen wrote:
So, I was going to make a thread about this in the strategy section, but that forum seems to be mostly champion guides and I don't want to put this somewhere inappropriate.

How do I go about getting better at ganking/counterganking as a jungler? I'm trying to get better maining jungler. My main strength in my play (imo) is my jungle control. I'm very good at keeping timers and always being on top of my buffs and being primed to steal one of theirs. Rarely ever do I lose a buff to the enemy team. My weakness is ganking.

I usually face a few problems in the ganking department...

1) I have a hard time deciding when to use my time to try to gank. Lets say I start at wraiths (assuming both buffs clear and not coming up in the next 30 secs-1 min). I usually chose to either go wolves and look at bot and mid, or go golums and look at top and mid. Usually, in my mind, it's useless to go for a gank unless they're pushing our towers. Unless I'm playing a champ like shaco that i know I can't afford not to be aggressive on, I will opt to go to the opposite side of the jungle to get that last camp and keep farming. Usually I just feel I'm going to make the guy retreat back to his tower and basically waste my time and let the opposite lanes know they're safe for a bit.

2) I can't menuver around wards very well. Bot especially (unless I'm playing a jungler like udyr with ghost) Is hard to gank for me. But even top, I find it hard to get in past the river wards. I try ganking from the lane, but It doesn't usually work very well. Like I said, unless they're pushed to our turret, I find it hard to gank. Another problem is getting people to talk and tell me where wards are in the first place, so If I didn't see it go down, it's unlikely that my team will answer me in chat and tell me where the ward is.

3) I'm not playing at the greatest ELO, and a lot of people will feed kills and then yell at me for not helping them. I'm not thin skined enough to let that bother me, but I feel like If i knew when their jugnler was going to gank, I could at least be there to make sure my guy doesn't die. You hear so much about how sick X's counterganks are, but I hardly ever get the chance to countergank anyone because i'm not in the right spot.

On July 22 2013 13:53 caelym wrote:
So about the "World" Meta topic (World in quotes, because it's basically just OGN), most NA pros are aware of what's being played and what's successful in OGN. Heck they often also understand why a particular strategy was successful in a particular game.

However the key is to to figure out the "trade secret" behind a strategy/meta. I'm talking about figuring how in what specific situation (position, timing, composition) is a world meta strategy most successful. People often don't choose to adopt the world meta because "the Koreans do it" is often not a good enough reason. And figuring out the real reasons to run a strategy (the "trade secrets") is a very difficult task to do, that requires quantitative analysis, experimentation, and guess work. Transferring over a strategy from another meta into your own in a highly effective way is not an easy task. The risk involved is that you spend a lot of manhours to learn that a strategy is only good in some edge case scenario.

Anyway, all these overhead and risk in analysis and the unwillingness to blindly follow result in each region developing their own meta. The best way to facilitate the growth of a World Meta is to just have more international play, which is not feasible due to the server and lag restrictions. Unless you directly play against another meta, it's hard to learn why it's good.

On July 22 2013 13:31 jaybrundage wrote:
I agree with you here. I think part of the problem was that NA wasn't really trying to compete with Azn teams. They just avoided thinking about them and focusing on there NA EU counterparts. But I also think that given time the meta's will collide and a "world meta" will be created. Similar to how the EU meta of adc support spread to become just the normal meta. Given time we won't even call it the world meta it will just be "the meta."

On July 22 2013 13:38 Arisen wrote:
So, I was going to make a thread about this in the strategy section, but that forum seems to be mostly champion guides and I don't want to put this somewhere inappropriate.

How do I go about getting better at ganking/counterganking as a jungler? I'm trying to get better maining jungler. My main strength in my play (imo) is my jungle control. I'm very good at keeping timers and always being on top of my buffs and being primed to steal one of theirs. Rarely ever do I lose a buff to the enemy team. My weakness is ganking.

I usually face a few problems in the ganking department...

1) I have a hard time deciding when to use my time to try to gank. Lets say I start at wraiths (assuming both buffs clear and not coming up in the next 30 secs-1 min). I usually chose to either go wolves and look at bot and mid, or go golums and look at top and mid. Usually, in my mind, it's useless to go for a gank unless they're pushing our towers. Unless I'm playing a champ like shaco that i know I can't afford not to be aggressive on, I will opt to go to the opposite side of the jungle to get that last camp and keep farming. Usually I just feel I'm going to make the guy retreat back to his tower and basically waste my time and let the opposite lanes know they're safe for a bit.

2) I can't menuver around wards very well. Bot especially (unless I'm playing a jungler like udyr with ghost) Is hard to gank for me. But even top, I find it hard to get in past the river wards. I try ganking from the lane, but It doesn't usually work very well. Like I said, unless they're pushed to our turret, I find it hard to gank. Another problem is getting people to talk and tell me where wards are in the first place, so If I didn't see it go down, it's unlikely that my team will answer me in chat and tell me where the ward is.

3) I'm not playing at the greatest ELO, and a lot of people will feed kills and then yell at me for not helping them. I'm not thin skined enough to let that bother me, but I feel like If i knew when their jugnler was going to gank, I could at least be there to make sure my guy doesn't die. You hear so much about how sick X's counterganks are, but I hardly ever get the chance to countergank anyone because i'm not in the right spot.

On July 22 2013 14:03 TheYango wrote:

The thing is, once you pass a point of just recognizing what's good in a given version and having the basics of knowing how to draft a coherent team composition (which isn't "meta"--it's just having better game understanding and drafting), there is no common ground that applies to all drafts between all teams. A metagame is driven specifically by the strengths, weaknesses, and playstyles that comprise the teams in it, and no matter how much information teams in different parts of the world share, each team is still limited by the individual strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies of both its individual players, and the team as a whole.

Different teams play the game differently, and even perfectly shared information between all teams would not change this fact because the players themselves aren't perfect--teams would play styles suited to their individual strengths and weaknesses, and as such, teams playing against one another would draft/play in ways specifically tailored to the teams they're playing against.