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United States47024 Posts
On June 16 2013 06:56 cLutZ wrote:
That type of balance has proven to be fleeting.
Only because Riot has tried to make people not expect lopsided design out of them.
Resourceless champs are a kind of lopsided design. No cost being balanced by cooldowns/weaker skills, making a completely resourceless champion usually centered around laning or around certain other "resource" mechanics (e.g. Katarina relies heavily on Voracity resets). This is because a champ with weaker skills balanced around being cost-less is fundamentally weaker in situations where the costs on enemies' skills are irrelevant--teamfights being the primary one as very few heroes are actually mana-capped in teamfights.
The balance issue only arises because Riot takes extraordinary issue with the idea of a lopsided kit, which fundamentally resourceless champions have to be. So they create issues by buffing resourceless champions into being too strong of champions in situations where, by nature, their kits should not be strong.
This literally would not be a "balance issue" if Riot did not have issues with lopsided Champion kits like they do, which also creates "problems" with other design elements in the game as well. We had a similar discussion with assassins, who are likewise only a problem when Riot insists on trying to buff them into being good teamfighters.
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On June 16 2013 07:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 06:56 cLutZ wrote:
That type of balance has proven to be fleeting. Only because Riot has tried to make people not expect lopsided design out of them. Resourceless champs are a kind of lopsided design. No cost being balanced by cooldowns/weaker skills, making a completely resourceless champion usually centered around laning or around certain other "resource" mechanics (e.g. Katarina relies heavily on Voracity resets). The balance issue only arises because Riot takes extraordinary issue with the idea of a lopsided kit, which fundamentally resourceless champions have to be. So they create issues by buffing resourceless champions into being too strong of champions in situations where, by nature, their kits should not be strong. This literally would not be a "balance issue" if Riot did not have issues with lopsided Champion kits like they do, which also creates "problems" with other design elements in the game as well.
But your making my point. There is some level where Katarina is balanced. However, that level is one where she has a mediocre laning phase, terrible dueling, and needs 2 resets to be relevant in teamfights. But that is not something Riot is going to do. If they aren't going to balance manaless champs properly, they shouldn't make them at all.
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On June 16 2013 07:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 06:53 Slayer91 wrote:On June 16 2013 06:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 16 2013 06:45 Slayer91 wrote:
any champ that with heals or lifesteal that has blue or buys tear is the same assuming you dont harass them at all
literally any champ without resources who buys lifesteal is exactly the same
BUYS. AKA opportunity cost. You could say the Tear is a problem right now because it eliminates mana costs for too low of a cost and too little of a tradeoff (because muramana is actually good for damage, which it shouldn't be). That is because tear is a problem, not the champs that use it. Edit: You can't use bad mechanics to justify other bad mechanics. so you're saying that aatrox is op because he never has to buy items so you can just lane with no items and be fine the whole thing of having to be melee range to lifesteal means you need to base more often to keep out in items if you want to use that sustain and you'er saying tear is also OP so basically everything that lets youstay in lane too long is a broken mechanic and it is becaues you said so? Champions that have mana issues need to BUY tear to fix it. Aatrox doesn't have to buy lifesteal to do so. And don't act like being melee is the most painful thing in the world. Most people in his lane are.
If you've actually played Aatrox instead of theorycrafting, first of all: You can't just have W on all the time or your passive stacks super slowly and your aspd will suck, you need to spam your other skills and hence use up your HP. E also is extremely slow and very easy to dodge.
W heal really isn't that much early on either. You outsustain it with like, a Doran Blade and HP quints.
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so not buy lifesteal is what makes him op?
what about lifesteal runes?
oh maybe lifesteal runes arent effective enough to make a difference?
then its just a numbers game again and not this whole broken buy design shit you guys are spouting with absolutely no justification except some morello musings
yango is right in that resourceless champs have to be handled differently but I don't know what he's talking about when he says they buff them to be too strong. Champs are buffed to be too strong all the time and it rarely is to do with the resources.
katarina relies on resets only as much as khazix does and khazix isnt a resourceless champ and he is also a champ that riot has problems balancing. resourcelessness isnt really the problem at all, since because of the way very few champs have serious mana problems anyway mana is just a way of making sure certain abilities cant be spammed to death when it would be too strong (warwicks q for example, really high mana cost because its a huge nuke+heal)
sicne resourceless champs are balanced around being able to spam their abilities early all they need to get right is the scaling into post lane phase
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United States47024 Posts
TBH I'd say let's see what Riot does with Zed, because Zed's design actually is lopsided in the way you'd expect an manaless assassin to be lopsided (e.g. his teamfighting is actually not all that good but his other advantages make up for it, so overall he's ok). He's both manaless and an assassin, and his kit more or less embraces what those things entail.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Why would katarina need to be weak in lane and superweak in duels, is the advantage of not having to manage your mana that massive in your opinion? lol. Obviously she needs to be balanced around the resets she gets but you are going way overboard
Current or pre-change Kha'zix would is a pretty good model for reset based champs and he is just fine not really having to manage mana and having pretty decent 1v1 AND laning phase
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It's not just about having to manage your mana, it's about being able to use everything on cooldown.
For example if you have Pantheon as a cooldown-based champion with every skill intact, he's impossible to beat.
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On June 16 2013 07:10 Scip wrote:
Why would katarina need to be weak in lane and superweak in duels, is the advantage of not having to manage your mana that massive in your opinion? lol. Obviously she needs to be balanced around the resets she gets but you are going way overboard
Current or pre-change Kha'zix would is a pretty good model for reset based champs and he is just fine not really having to manage mana and having pretty decent 1v1 AND laning phase
The ability to not manage mana is incredibly strong. It means, if your champ is of equal strength, or even slightly weaker, you push them out of lane and they lose exp and creeps to tower at your leisure.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 16 2013 07:13 Shikyo wrote:
It's not just about having to manage your mana, it's about being able to use everything on cooldown.
For example if you have Pantheon as a cooldown-based champion with every skill intact, he's impossible to beat.
Oh no, if you completely redesign a champion without thought it is very likely that he will be imbalanced as a result! While that would be a valid concern if champions were completely redesigned without thought regularly, as that doesn't really happen, I don't think it is
Obviously it is an advantage, but that doesn't mean that their laning has to be weak. It only means that you have too keep in mind their resourcelessness when balancing their laning phase
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United States47024 Posts
@Scip, Teut
I think the "design" problem as stated has to do with the fact that Riot cares about the "fun" of playing/playing against the champion. Bear in mind that with many of these champions, the point of balance is actually at a point where many players still find playing against these champs to be obnoxious. This is actually generally the case with many really lopsided champs. Lane dominators, solo-killers, split-pushers. Champs that are overly good at these 3 things are "obnoxious" to people to play against, even if from a pure balance perspective, they are at a place that is not problematic.
So the design problem is that if you balance the champ overall, then people find it un-fun to play against even though he's fair. And if you nerf the champ to be poor enough that they're ok with him, then people who play the champ will complain because the champ being underpowered impacts their "fun". There's no place where these two actually line up properly which is why lopsided champions create issues for Riot. Hence why they are considered to be bad design.
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On June 16 2013 07:15 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 07:13 Shikyo wrote:
It's not just about having to manage your mana, it's about being able to use everything on cooldown.
For example if you have Pantheon as a cooldown-based champion with every skill intact, he's impossible to beat. Oh no, if you completely redesign a champion without thought it is very likely that he will be imbalanced as a result! While that would be a valid concern if champions were completely redesigned without thought regularly, as that doesn't really happen, I don't think it is
The question is: How much weaker must the champ be to make up for it.
My answer is: Much weaker than what Riot is comfortable with.
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On June 16 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote:
TBH I'd say let's see what Riot does with Zed, because Zed's design actually is lopsided in the way you'd expect an manaless assassin to be lopsided (e.g. his teamfighting is actually not all that good but his other advantages make up for it, so overall he's ok). He's both manaless and an assassin, and his kit more or less embraces what those things entail.
I don't understand, you want him to be changed ?
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On June 16 2013 07:06 Slayer91 wrote:
yango is right in that resourceless champs have to be handled differently but I don't know what he's talking about when he says they buff them to be too strong. Champs are buffed to be too strong all the time and it rarely is to do with the resources.
It was "too strong in some situations." For example, Kat should be strong against a midlaner that relies on mana but weak against that same midlaner with blue buff. If Riot balanced Kat around facing an enemy with blue buff, then Kat would be too strong in that one situation (1v1 laning).
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United States47024 Posts
On June 16 2013 07:18 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote:
TBH I'd say let's see what Riot does with Zed, because Zed's design actually is lopsided in the way you'd expect an manaless assassin to be lopsided (e.g. his teamfighting is actually not all that good but his other advantages make up for it, so overall he's ok). He's both manaless and an assassin, and his kit more or less embraces what those things entail. I don't understand, you want him to be changed ?
I think he's fine. I expect him to be changed because Riot might not think so.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 16 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:
@Scip, Teut
I think the "design" problem as stated has to do with the fact that Riot cares about the "fun" of playing/playing against the champion. Bear in mind that with many of these champions, the point of balance is actually at a point where many players still find playing against these champs to be obnoxious. This is actually generally the case with many really lopsided champs. Lane dominators, solo-killers, split-pushers. Champs that are overly good at these 3 things are "obnoxious" to people to play against, even if from a pure balance perspective, they are at a place that is not problematic.
So the design problem is that if you balance the champ overall, then people find it un-fun to play against even though he's fair. And if you nerf the champ to be poor enough that they're ok with him, then people who play the champ will complain because the champ being underpowered impacts their "fun". There's no place where these two actually line up properly which is why lopsided champions create issues for Riot.
This is the time to summon all the people who scream "balance OP with OP like in broodwar!" if there ever was one.
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On June 16 2013 07:17 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 07:15 Scip wrote:On June 16 2013 07:13 Shikyo wrote:
It's not just about having to manage your mana, it's about being able to use everything on cooldown.
For example if you have Pantheon as a cooldown-based champion with every skill intact, he's impossible to beat. Oh no, if you completely redesign a champion without thought it is very likely that he will be imbalanced as a result! While that would be a valid concern if champions were completely redesigned without thought regularly, as that doesn't really happen, I don't think it is The question is: How much weaker must the champ be to make up for it. My answer is: Much weaker than what Riot is comfortable with.
why then is everyone not spamming all the already tons of resourceless champs in the game since they are clearly too strong?
that second line sounds like something straight out of a conspiracy theory
you went frmo aatrox is op to every resourceless champ is op
how is this related to the united states turning into a communist state?
the issue with "fun" getting in the way of balance shouldn't have a major impact as long as
-the champion if it gets ahead can still do really well so that people can always have "fun" if they play decently with it
-the champion has enough of a niche that it rotates into viability even if its sometimes underpowered to avoid any "anti fun" mechanics
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United States47024 Posts
-the champion has enough of a niche that it rotates into viability even if its sometimes underpowered to avoid any "anti fun" mechanics
See, this runs into problems because both Riot and the general playerbase have historically had problems distinguishing the difference between something that's actually over/underpowered, and something that's just in/out of style due to the metagame and current playstyles.
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On June 16 2013 07:21 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 07:17 cLutZ wrote:On June 16 2013 07:15 Scip wrote:On June 16 2013 07:13 Shikyo wrote:
It's not just about having to manage your mana, it's about being able to use everything on cooldown.
For example if you have Pantheon as a cooldown-based champion with every skill intact, he's impossible to beat. Oh no, if you completely redesign a champion without thought it is very likely that he will be imbalanced as a result! While that would be a valid concern if champions were completely redesigned without thought regularly, as that doesn't really happen, I don't think it is The question is: How much weaker must the champ be to make up for it. My answer is: Much weaker than what Riot is comfortable with. why then is everyone not spamming all the already tons of resourceless champs in the game since they are clearly too strong? that second line sounds like something straight out of a conspiracy theory
They are? Shen, Rumble, Zed, Zac, Kennen, Lee Sin. Plus the champs that are being rendered manaless by the currently abusive relationships they have with tear/manamune: Jayce, Kha,
That is 8 champs that is 7% of the champs that is probably making up at least 30% of picks/bans.
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United States47024 Posts
Well you also have to adjust for the fact that there actually are zero manaless supports or AD carries.
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On June 16 2013 07:31 TheYango wrote:
Well you also have to adjust for the fact that there actually are zero manaless supports or AD carries.
Making the stats worse.
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EPT
