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On June 25 2013 14:01 caelym wrote:
All this business talk got me thinking about the extent of Riot's influence. A journalist should do an investigative report into just how much power Riot has over LoL eSports and LoL teams. What powers do individual players and teams have (both de iure and de facto)? And how does this ecosystem and bureaucratic structure compare to other professional sports? This story could go really big.
I think these topics should have been publically discuss a year ago when LCS was first revealed (I know it was talked about somewhat but mostly by people from other games who were trying to paint Riot as evil. Funny enough the same people now want Blizzard to go full Riot with SC2 and WCS). I know I personally was blinded and distracted by the grandeur of LCS that I didn't think about the effect of this infrastructure on the future of this eSport.
Isn't every field dominated by a limited number of financial sources heavily incestuous and corrupted to a certain degree? How much are we in the know about the nature of professional sports that is similar in scale to professional e-sports to begin with, before we start to make valid comparisons? As long as people care about competitive integrity, and are passionate enough to make something good out of the business instead of trying to cash in quick bucks, I think we're in for a decent ride.
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United States23745 Posts
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WTF I NEED TO FIND A COSTCO JUST ONCE TO SEE WHAT THE HYPE IS DAMMIT
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Proleague was really fun to watch but I would imagine the vast majority of people who watched BW preferred OSL/MSL. I think the thing I dislike about LoL the most is that the storylines and such seem harder to tell than the ones for StarCraft in individual leagues. Granted, I don't even watch SC2 but the StarLeague runs were so cool because it was an individual instead of a team. Made it more... "personable?" Or intimate. I guess that'd be the best way to describe it.
On June 25 2013 14:01 caelym wrote:
All this business talk got me thinking about the extent of Riot's influence. A journalist should do an investigative report into just how much power Riot has over LoL eSports and LoL teams. What powers do individual players and teams have (both de iure and de facto)? And how does this ecosystem and bureaucratic structure compare to other professional sports? This story could go really big.
I think these topics should have been publically discuss a year ago when LCS was first revealed (I know it was talked about somewhat but mostly by people from other games who were trying to paint Riot as evil. Funny enough the same people now want Blizzard to go full Riot with SC2 and WCS). I know I personally was blinded and distracted by the grandeur of LCS that I didn't think about the effect of this infrastructure on the future of this eSport.
I think this would be pretty hard as I'd imagine the LCS players probably can't talk about parts of their contracts and even if they could I don't think any would put their name to something that makes Riot look bad.
I think the biggest problem of it is how it essentially region locks the professional teams. In S2 before LCS was even talked about I was "looking ahead" and was hoping for the prospect of foreign teams traveling to Korea and trying to compete there like they did for early days of BW. Granted this system might be better for someone like me who is a fan of the NA scene as I'm sure the scene in NA would've been pretty pathetic or almost non-existent if the Koreans/Chinese far exceed the skill level of NA/EU (as they appear to be doing).
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On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed.
Its not to say I didn't enjoy those storylines and the singles tournaments, I just like teamsports much much better personally. Maybe its just me, but I liked teamleague much better.
Teams just have more loyaltie, more storylines. And I think that the case in terms of most peoples ideas of sports too. For example, Hockey, Basketball, Football, Soccer, Baseball etc all much more popular than like Tennis, swimming, track and field, etc.
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On June 25 2013 14:30 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 14:01 caelym wrote:
All this business talk got me thinking about the extent of Riot's influence. A journalist should do an investigative report into just how much power Riot has over LoL eSports and LoL teams. What powers do individual players and teams have (both de iure and de facto)? And how does this ecosystem and bureaucratic structure compare to other professional sports? This story could go really big.
I think these topics should have been publically discuss a year ago when LCS was first revealed (I know it was talked about somewhat but mostly by people from other games who were trying to paint Riot as evil. Funny enough the same people now want Blizzard to go full Riot with SC2 and WCS). I know I personally was blinded and distracted by the grandeur of LCS that I didn't think about the effect of this infrastructure on the future of this eSport. I think this would be pretty hard as I'd imagine the LCS players probably can't talk about parts of their contracts and even if they could I don't think any would put their name to something that makes Riot look bad. I think the biggest problem of it is how it essentially region locks the professional teams. In S2 before LCS was even talked about I was "looking ahead" and was hoping for the prospect of foreign teams traveling to Korea and trying to compete there like they did for early days of BW. Granted this system might be better for someone like me who is a fan of the NA scene as I'm sure the scene in NA would've been pretty pathetic or almost non-existent if the Koreans/Chinese far exceed the skill level of NA/EU (as they appear to be doing).
I wouldn't say the point of this is to make Riot look bad, but rather explore the true nature of the beast we're feeding with our engagement and money. Information might be gathered from ex-industry people or through anonymous sources. A major part of investigative journalism is to uncover information that is not suppose to be known to the public.
On June 25 2013 14:23 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 14:01 caelym wrote:
All this business talk got me thinking about the extent of Riot's influence. A journalist should do an investigative report into just how much power Riot has over LoL eSports and LoL teams. What powers do individual players and teams have (both de iure and de facto)? And how does this ecosystem and bureaucratic structure compare to other professional sports? This story could go really big.
I think these topics should have been publically discuss a year ago when LCS was first revealed (I know it was talked about somewhat but mostly by people from other games who were trying to paint Riot as evil. Funny enough the same people now want Blizzard to go full Riot with SC2 and WCS). I know I personally was blinded and distracted by the grandeur of LCS that I didn't think about the effect of this infrastructure on the future of this eSport. Isn't every field dominated by a limited number of financial sources heavily incestuous and corrupted to a certain degree? How much are we in the know about the nature of professional sports that is similar in scale to professional e-sports to begin with, before we start to make valid comparisons? As long as people care about competitive integrity, and are passionate enough to make something good out of the business instead of trying to cash in quick bucks, I think we're in for a decent ride.
To what degree is the system pseudo incestous and corrupt though? Also I can see this taking months of research for a really insightful and well sourced report.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed.
teamleague is the most important one for sure though, both in terms of "it's the one you're supposed to cheer for" (everyone always says they place proleague as top priority in interviews) and in terms of raw numbers for the finals. All those epic beach shots are for proleague finals, not for individual leagues.
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Ok Jayce is MASSIVELY BUGGED. His E knockback is atm flinging people backwards about 500range, like a Singed/Volibear flip, except 3times as far. He's done it about 10 times in my game and is exploiting the shit out of it and is denying anything is wrong at all.
He just switches into melee, hits you with E and normally you would fly back normally for your knockback. He does it and you fly towards him and like 200range behind his character like you just flew there.
Just lost my promo because of it and he denied he was doing anything wrong and was being very douchey, I guess I have to perma ban Jayce in ranked until Riot disables him. Everyone in the game saw him doing it and admitted it was 100% unfair and a bug.
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On June 25 2013 13:21 ticklishmusic wrote:
It;s kind of interesting-- early season 3 people complained how single-target junglers suffered from the jungle changes. They should do a lot better now though, maybe we'll see even more old season 2 junglers become more popular again.
Who complained about single target being bad? Early s3 was xin + jarvan. Honestly single target was made even better in this last patch (see nunu). The trouble is really just for slow clearing junglers like Maokai or weak early lane presence like mundo or shyvana.
Thus you need decent clear plus good lane presence to be strong.
Also, 20 percent, like I said, is really good. Its better than marvel's Sony deal.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On June 25 2013 13:26 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 12:59 HazMat wrote:On June 25 2013 12:40 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? It's a nice sentiment that works decently as a slogan. Nothing more, nothing less. Well I mean it's a lie. I thought it was about LGBT but once I highlighted over it I had a sorrowful chuckle. You're telling me people aren't being totally genuine in their words of good will? Stop it man. You're freaking me out! 
We should go start a riot
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On June 25 2013 14:55 Zooper31 wrote:
Ok Jayce is MASSIVELY BUGGED. His E knockback is atm flinging people backwards about 500range, like a Singed/Volibear flip, except 3times as far. He's done it about 10 times in my game and is exploiting the shit out of it and is denying anything is wrong at all.
He just switches into melee, hits you with E and normally you would fly back normally for your knockback. He does it and you fly towards him and like 200range behind his character like you just flew there.
Just lost my promo because of it and he denied he was doing anything wrong and was being very douchey, I guess I have to perma ban Jayce in ranked until Riot disables him. Everyone in the game saw him doing it and admitted it was 100% unfair and a bug.
can anyone confirm?
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On June 25 2013 14:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed. teamleague is the most important one for sure though, both in terms of "it's the one you're supposed to cheer for" (everyone always says they place proleague as top priority in interviews) and in terms of raw numbers for the finals. All those epic beach shots are for proleague finals, not for individual leagues.
The discussion is swaying into the wrong direction, but I'll just conclude by saying that the direction Riot Gaming is taking with their compulsory seven men rosters could be abused to a greater degree where it will become reminiscent of the ProLeague, rather than the individual leagues I've mentioned. Yes, the level of gaming and competition would become higher, but the role of the professional players becomes much less important, and the relative power of the organizations the players belong to will start to play a greater role. So much so that going to the right team, and signing the right contracts becomes much more influencial to the success of a player than his personal attributes as a competitive gamer. It's a growing pain that comes with the scene developing as a legitimate business, but one that hurts the natural curiosity of spectators like me. The ProLeague events were always promoted more, and had much more financial backings of the sponsors, so it's only natural that it turned out that way. However, for me at least, the external factors that influenced the results of these competitions were too great to truly represent the pure gaming abilities of these enormously gifted individuals, and that detached me to a certain extent. It becomes more of a business, a microcosm of a complicated world that I have pulled away from to enjoy something that is pure, and innocent at its basics.
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On June 25 2013 15:18 Dusty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 14:55 Zooper31 wrote:
Ok Jayce is MASSIVELY BUGGED. His E knockback is atm flinging people backwards about 500range, like a Singed/Volibear flip, except 3times as far. He's done it about 10 times in my game and is exploiting the shit out of it and is denying anything is wrong at all.
He just switches into melee, hits you with E and normally you would fly back normally for your knockback. He does it and you fly towards him and like 200range behind his character like you just flew there.
Just lost my promo because of it and he denied he was doing anything wrong and was being very douchey, I guess I have to perma ban Jayce in ranked until Riot disables him. Everyone in the game saw him doing it and admitted it was 100% unfair and a bug. can anyone confirm?
Just tried testing it in custom game. Can't get it to work. He used it to get lvl1 FB in our jungle and continued to do it all game to our mid laner and during teamfights whenever his E was up. Can't seem to replicate, wish I would've recorded it omg.
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On June 25 2013 15:18 Dusty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 14:55 Zooper31 wrote:
Ok Jayce is MASSIVELY BUGGED. His E knockback is atm flinging people backwards about 500range, like a Singed/Volibear flip, except 3times as far. He's done it about 10 times in my game and is exploiting the shit out of it and is denying anything is wrong at all.
He just switches into melee, hits you with E and normally you would fly back normally for your knockback. He does it and you fly towards him and like 200range behind his character like you just flew there.
Just lost my promo because of it and he denied he was doing anything wrong and was being very douchey, I guess I have to perma ban Jayce in ranked until Riot disables him. Everyone in the game saw him doing it and admitted it was 100% unfair and a bug. can anyone confirm?
Played as Jayce a few times today and ran into nothing of the sort. Although you still can't flash his E, which is hilarious.
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On June 25 2013 15:20 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 14:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed. teamleague is the most important one for sure though, both in terms of "it's the one you're supposed to cheer for" (everyone always says they place proleague as top priority in interviews) and in terms of raw numbers for the finals. All those epic beach shots are for proleague finals, not for individual leagues. The discussion is swaying into the wrong direction, but I'll just conclude by saying that the direction Riot Gaming is taking with their compulsory seven men rosters could be abused to a greater degree where it will become reminiscent of the ProLeague, rather than the individual leagues I've mentioned. Yes, the level of gaming and competition would become higher, but the role of the professional players becomes much less important, and the relative power of the organizations the players belong to will start to play a greater role. So much so that going to the right team, and signing the right contracts becomes much more influencial to the success of a player than his personal attributes as a competitive gamer. It's a growing pain that comes with the scene developing as a legitimate business, but one that hurts the natural curiosity of spectators like me. The ProLeague events were always promoted more, and had much more financial backings of the sponsors, so it's only natural that it turned out that way. However, for me at least, the external factors that influenced the results of these competitions were too great to truly represent the pure gaming abilities of these enormously gifted individuals, and that detached me to a certain extent. It becomes more of a business, a microcosm of a complicated world that I have pulled away from to enjoy something that is pure, and innocent at its basics.
Its not even necessarily a sponsor thing.
Team sports just more successful than individual sports. There more successful team sports, and they all more successful than the most successful 1v1 sport (MMA)
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On June 25 2013 15:25 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 15:20 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 14:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed. teamleague is the most important one for sure though, both in terms of "it's the one you're supposed to cheer for" (everyone always says they place proleague as top priority in interviews) and in terms of raw numbers for the finals. All those epic beach shots are for proleague finals, not for individual leagues. The discussion is swaying into the wrong direction, but I'll just conclude by saying that the direction Riot Gaming is taking with their compulsory seven men rosters could be abused to a greater degree where it will become reminiscent of the ProLeague, rather than the individual leagues I've mentioned. Yes, the level of gaming and competition would become higher, but the role of the professional players becomes much less important, and the relative power of the organizations the players belong to will start to play a greater role. So much so that going to the right team, and signing the right contracts becomes much more influencial to the success of a player than his personal attributes as a competitive gamer. It's a growing pain that comes with the scene developing as a legitimate business, but one that hurts the natural curiosity of spectators like me. The ProLeague events were always promoted more, and had much more financial backings of the sponsors, so it's only natural that it turned out that way. However, for me at least, the external factors that influenced the results of these competitions were too great to truly represent the pure gaming abilities of these enormously gifted individuals, and that detached me to a certain extent. It becomes more of a business, a microcosm of a complicated world that I have pulled away from to enjoy something that is pure, and innocent at its basics. Its not even necessarily a sponsor thing. Team sports just more successful than individual sports. There more successful team sports, and they all more successful than the most successful 1v1 sport (MMA)
Tennis is more successful as MMA I would guess
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On June 25 2013 15:31 Chexx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 15:25 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 15:20 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 14:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed. teamleague is the most important one for sure though, both in terms of "it's the one you're supposed to cheer for" (everyone always says they place proleague as top priority in interviews) and in terms of raw numbers for the finals. All those epic beach shots are for proleague finals, not for individual leagues. The discussion is swaying into the wrong direction, but I'll just conclude by saying that the direction Riot Gaming is taking with their compulsory seven men rosters could be abused to a greater degree where it will become reminiscent of the ProLeague, rather than the individual leagues I've mentioned. Yes, the level of gaming and competition would become higher, but the role of the professional players becomes much less important, and the relative power of the organizations the players belong to will start to play a greater role. So much so that going to the right team, and signing the right contracts becomes much more influencial to the success of a player than his personal attributes as a competitive gamer. It's a growing pain that comes with the scene developing as a legitimate business, but one that hurts the natural curiosity of spectators like me. The ProLeague events were always promoted more, and had much more financial backings of the sponsors, so it's only natural that it turned out that way. However, for me at least, the external factors that influenced the results of these competitions were too great to truly represent the pure gaming abilities of these enormously gifted individuals, and that detached me to a certain extent. It becomes more of a business, a microcosm of a complicated world that I have pulled away from to enjoy something that is pure, and innocent at its basics. Its not even necessarily a sponsor thing. Team sports just more successful than individual sports. There more successful team sports, and they all more successful than the most successful 1v1 sport (MMA) Tennis is more successful as MMA I would guess
Nope. Last major tennis tournament (sony eriksson cup) got 301,000 viewers world wide. UFC gets that many views every three weeks on 60 dollar PPV events just from NA alone.
In comparison, the average viewership for the NHL playoffs was just under 1.5 million in the States and 2.9 million in Canada.
The NBA Game 7 of the Finals drew 26.3 million viewers.
Teamsports just crush individual sports in terms of popularity; more people get to compete, more people play, more people are interested. More story lines, can stay loyal to samne team for a long time dont need to jump ship and learn new storylines.
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LCS Season 4 could possibly challenge NHL numbers...
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On June 25 2013 15:42 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 15:31 Chexx wrote:On June 25 2013 15:25 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 15:20 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 14:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:
[quote]
I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games?
Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed. teamleague is the most important one for sure though, both in terms of "it's the one you're supposed to cheer for" (everyone always says they place proleague as top priority in interviews) and in terms of raw numbers for the finals. All those epic beach shots are for proleague finals, not for individual leagues. The discussion is swaying into the wrong direction, but I'll just conclude by saying that the direction Riot Gaming is taking with their compulsory seven men rosters could be abused to a greater degree where it will become reminiscent of the ProLeague, rather than the individual leagues I've mentioned. Yes, the level of gaming and competition would become higher, but the role of the professional players becomes much less important, and the relative power of the organizations the players belong to will start to play a greater role. So much so that going to the right team, and signing the right contracts becomes much more influencial to the success of a player than his personal attributes as a competitive gamer. It's a growing pain that comes with the scene developing as a legitimate business, but one that hurts the natural curiosity of spectators like me. The ProLeague events were always promoted more, and had much more financial backings of the sponsors, so it's only natural that it turned out that way. However, for me at least, the external factors that influenced the results of these competitions were too great to truly represent the pure gaming abilities of these enormously gifted individuals, and that detached me to a certain extent. It becomes more of a business, a microcosm of a complicated world that I have pulled away from to enjoy something that is pure, and innocent at its basics. Its not even necessarily a sponsor thing. Team sports just more successful than individual sports. There more successful team sports, and they all more successful than the most successful 1v1 sport (MMA) Tennis is more successful as MMA I would guess Nope. Last major tennis tournament (sony eriksson cup) got 301,000 viewers world wide. UFC gets that many views every three weeks on 60 dollar PPV events just from NA alone. In comparison, the average viewership for the NHL playoffs was just under 1.5 million in the States and 2.9 million in Canada. The NBA Game 7 of the Finals drew 26.3 million viewers. Teamsports just crush individual sports in terms of popularity; more people get to compete, more people play, more people are interested. More story lines, can stay loyal to samne team for a long time dont need to jump ship and learn new storylines.
Link ?pretty sure that in Europe MMA is not famous at all
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EPT
