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Yeah I dunno, the Riot platform seems huge and even though the actual cost to post this stuff is small, providing marketing access to 40 million active players makes it fair
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On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players.
If 7 player rosters breeds more Brood War-esqe stuff in Korea I'm all for it. For most teams that would mean having 14 players which is fairly close to Brood War active rosters iirc. Would be cool to see, "MakNooN's Old Boy," in a few years...
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On June 25 2013 12:59 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 12:40 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? It's a nice sentiment that works decently as a slogan. Nothing more, nothing less. Well I mean it's a lie. I thought it was about LGBT but once I highlighted over it I had a sorrowful chuckle.
You're telling me people aren't being totally genuine in their words of good will? Stop it man. You're freaking me out! 
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On June 25 2013 13:10 caelym wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 12:42 Fionn wrote:
give me muh blaze icon
I don't get how people say Riot is being greedy by doing this. Some people have spent thousands of dollars on skins. I don't see the difference. The concept isn't greedy but the revenue split seems skewed. Teams offer their brand while Riot offers its distribution platform. I don't know the numbers behind all of this but on the surface I feel teams are bringing more to the table in this exchange.
At the same time, they were available during S2 finals for qualifying teams for free. I think people that didn't change since then still have them. The client is a market space that only Riot has access to. 20% of something is better than 100% of nothing. This is especially true for smaller teams that aren't as set up as, say, TSM/CRS.
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so now after my loading screen, the game just disappears and never starts. nice.
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United States23745 Posts
On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more.
That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol.
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On June 25 2013 13:33 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more. That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol.
They're just bribing you.
Anyway, we're all forgetting the real crime here: the competitive Pokemon scene is going wildly overlooked and underloved on TL. There's not even a mod specifically for Pokeposts, I mean come on. What heartless bastards
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Sure this is a great advertising opportunity for teams but don't forget this could also be a big new revenue source for Riot. Moreover the teams are providing the product from which Riot is getting this new revenue. Brands and logos are very valuable assets. I'm mostly posting this to provide a different perspective on this business deal. I truely believe Riot has the best intentions in mind but at its core it is still a for-profit business.
Edit: I should also point out that teams may have already given Riot the rights to their branding in a previous contract. In this case the 20% is just a nice bonus for them.
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On June 25 2013 13:37 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more. That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol. They're just bribing you. Anyway, we're all forgetting the real crime here: the competitive Pokemon scene is going wildly overlooked and underloved on TL. There's not even a mod specifically for Pokeposts, I mean come on. What heartless bastards
There's no thread praying to our costco overlords either, so TL still has a ways to go.
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On June 25 2013 13:40 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:37 Requizen wrote:On June 25 2013 13:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more. That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol. They're just bribing you. Anyway, we're all forgetting the real crime here: the competitive Pokemon scene is going wildly overlooked and underloved on TL. There's not even a mod specifically for Pokeposts, I mean come on. What heartless bastards There's no thread praying to our costco overlords either, so TL still has a ways to go.
I wonder how tired Neo gets of our shit.
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On June 25 2013 13:44 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:40 Amui wrote:On June 25 2013 13:37 Requizen wrote:On June 25 2013 13:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more. That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol. They're just bribing you. Anyway, we're all forgetting the real crime here: the competitive Pokemon scene is going wildly overlooked and underloved on TL. There's not even a mod specifically for Pokeposts, I mean come on. What heartless bastards There's no thread praying to our costco overlords either, so TL still has a ways to go. I wonder how tired Neo gets of our shit.
Who cares, CLG beat C9 and TSM this week
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On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players.
The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree.
There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption.
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On June 25 2013 13:45 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:44 Requizen wrote:On June 25 2013 13:40 Amui wrote:On June 25 2013 13:37 Requizen wrote:On June 25 2013 13:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more. That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol. They're just bribing you. Anyway, we're all forgetting the real crime here: the competitive Pokemon scene is going wildly overlooked and underloved on TL. There's not even a mod specifically for Pokeposts, I mean come on. What heartless bastards There's no thread praying to our costco overlords either, so TL still has a ways to go. I wonder how tired Neo gets of our shit. Who cares, CLG beat C9 and TSM this week
Well he's also a C9 fan (because bandwagon, don't listen to any of that crap about how he plays normals with Meteos), so the win/loss could have broke him.
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On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption.
Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best...
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All this business talk got me thinking about the extent of Riot's influence. A journalist should do an investigative report into just how much power Riot has over LoL eSports and LoL teams. What powers do individual players and teams have (both de iure and de facto)? And how does this ecosystem and bureaucratic structure compare to other professional sports? This story could go really big.
I think these topics should have been publically discuss a year ago when LCS was first revealed (I know it was talked about somewhat but mostly by people from other games who were trying to paint Riot as evil. Funny enough the same people now want Blizzard to go full Riot with SC2 and WCS). I know I personally was blinded and distracted by the grandeur of LCS that I didn't think about the effect of this infrastructure on the future of this eSport.
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On June 25 2013 13:37 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more. That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol. They're just bribing you. Anyway, we're all forgetting the real crime here: the competitive Pokemon scene is going wildly overlooked and underloved on TL. There's not even a mod specifically for Pokeposts, I mean come on. What heartless bastards
Sounds like an application to me.
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On June 25 2013 14:07 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:37 Requizen wrote:On June 25 2013 13:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 25 2013 13:06 overt wrote:On June 25 2013 12:39 Brambled wrote:On June 25 2013 12:32 HazMat wrote:
Anyone else notice how the colored pony logo says "TL Loves Esports, equally" if you highlight over it? Is that not counting League or what? Was wondering same thing. Anyone able to give me a quick TL:DR reason why it seems TL decided to endorse Dota 2 exclusively? I have no issues with Dota 2; but it just seems they are a little more favored on this site. It's because all of TL's staff hates League of Legends obvs. More serious, they picked up DotA2 because DotA as a game has a long and storied history. Much like Brood War/SC2. League does not. The TL community, not just their staff, also preferred SC2 and DotA2 in general (which I think is echoed in how small our LoL community is by comparison). Furthermore there seem to be few higher up staff members interested/knowledgeable enough in professional LoL to really pick it up at this time. You wouldn't want TL to pick up LoL officially the way they did SC2/DotA2 and half ass it. Neo became an admin fairly recently. We got new banlings. I'm sure it's something they intend on doing down the road if the League scene stays big. And it almost certainly will. This gets brought up all the time on GD and it's probably the worst place to bring it up since everyone here will (mostly) agree that TL should pick up LoL. Or at least that they should at some point. I don't browse much of the rest of TL but if there is a thread, or if one ever pops up, about website suggestions or something I'd bring it up there. Also I don't think the, "We love ESPORTS Equally," was meant as a sleight in any way to LoL. edit: Official statement they made when they picked up DotA2 plus the announcement thread. + Show Spoiler +We understand that League right now is the biggest game with the largest player base. But this isn't purely a business or numbers decision for TL. At this moment, taking into account our existing core audience (StarCraft fans), we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2. We already have an active Dota 2 forum, and pro Dota 2 players are streaming using our stream list. Though no TL game expansion can compare to us adding StarCraft 2 two years ago, this is a similar situation where all the pieces are already in place.
This doesn't mean we hate League of Legends or that it has no place on TL. In fact, we have many fans of professional LoL on TL and they and our staff have done some amazing forum-based coverage of LoL tournaments, such as MLG Summer Arena or IEM Cologne. We're not ruling out adding League, but right now we feel that Dota 2 fits us more. That's a pretty concise explanation of the entire situation. Except they like us enough to give us pens! I think that gives us pseudo-acceptance lol. They're just bribing you. Anyway, we're all forgetting the real crime here: the competitive Pokemon scene is going wildly overlooked and underloved on TL. There's not even a mod specifically for Pokeposts, I mean come on. What heartless bastards Sounds like an application to me.
Dear TL,
I like the pokemans. I have been playing the pokemans since I was a wee lad of 8. I think you should give the ability to moderate any post relating to the pokemans because I'm awesome.
Also get a League of Legends team I mean seriously it's 2013 come on get with the times
Regards,
Requizen
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On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best...
Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed.
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United States23745 Posts
On June 25 2013 14:14 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:56 iCanada wrote:On June 25 2013 13:48 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 13:21 xes wrote:On June 25 2013 10:37 Letmelose wrote:On June 25 2013 09:04 Fionn wrote:
I mean, NA and Eu have "subs", but it really just means a player they use if another player is sick, busy doing something else, or is about to get kicked/benched and due to roster freezing, they have no other option. Back when the scene was basically weekend three day tournaments, scouting and preparing for a specific team really wasn't needed. You could take a guess who you might face, but it'd be stupid to focus your entire efforts on a single team when you don't know how the bracket will line up.
Now, in all five regions, teams know who they are facing every single week and have a week to two to prepare. The biggest reason Ozone are the Korean champions and Blaze isn't is because of how well Ozone were prepared for Blaze's strategies. You can't really blame Blaze for not changing anything, having won thirteen in a row and two of those games against the very same Ozone team. If they had changed strategies, champions, etc., and then would have lost, the backlash would have been monumental, demanding why a team who was so perfect decided to change things up.
With teams having so much time to prepare, teams are going to get broken down. With every team playing 30+ games a season, every team around the world is able to look at your strategies, favorite champions and have a good amount of time to try and find a counter. Throwing subs into the mix, it gives you 6+ new champions per sub that you can use, and depending on the player, it might give you a radically different team composition. You could have a very farm heavy, passive top laner who looks to dominate in the late game, or you could have an uber aggressive, tower diving top laner who wants to snowball early.
I could see it coming to a point where teams are even allowed to sub in players during BoX series, bringing the mind games and tactics to a whole new level, making every game of a series different and thought out before going in. I'm really hesitant when it comes to abusing the seven team member rule to the fullest. It might eventually reach the point where opposing teams care as much about the possible player compositions as much as the champion compositions. It also might breed a special group of players who only train to take down the key members of an opposing team, instead of encouraging the growth of complete and versatile players. There's just a whole lot of paths this kind of policy might take if it is utilized to its fullest potential, and I'm not liking what I picture in my head. What if there are two players that practice specifically for a certain patch that will become defunct with time, while two of their substitutes practice on the current patch in preparation for the next group of games? Only the most ruthless, and financially well-off organizations will be able to make proper use of Riot's seven men policy. Ultimately, I fear it will be the death of the amateur scene, with talented players trying desperately to become the "seventh" member of a prestigious professional team with a clearly defined role, rather than trying to rise on his own as a complete player. What made BW exciting for me in part was the coaching and which players to send out when, especially when lower-tier players could come out with crazy sniper strategies. This also created a culture where the opportunity for involvement in eSports is larger than have a fixed roster. You also get to prepare better and give your star players some rest if you don't need to secure wins. Obviously a set of 5v5 matches is much different than multiple 1v1 matches, but I don't think your specified worst-case scenarios are that bad. Having more players who specialize in a style of play will allow teams to field much more interesting strategies, provided that they can somehow maintain team synergy with more than 5 revolving players. The difference is that there were individual leagues like the OGN StarLeague, and MSL, where the individual greatness of various players shone the brightest, that compensated for the rigid machine-like efficiency of the team-based ProLeagues. There were numerous players who essentially ended up being degenerated to single match-up snipers, or throw-away strategic cards. Mind-games and strategic flexibility of the players were reduced substantially due to the heavy role of player selection for the "optimal" match-ups, and what often ended up happening was that the players ended up being mere vessels of the strategic picture the team as a whole ended up conjuring as a whole. In fact, the ProLeague heavily favoured companies that had more personel in their support staff crew, with the role of professional players diminishing to a certain degree. There's more possibilities than what I've mentioned. Teams could end up having a whole crew of "substitutes in waiting" that practice solely for certain strategies according to what the next metagame, or future patches could bring. A team with the necessary finance could just have every single variety of the game mastered by each of their specialists waiting for a suitable patch, waiting to be included in the roster in the future as soon as the current metagame goes out of fashion. Professional players might become just temporary cards constantly being switched around, with no stories of adaptation, and personal redemption. Lets be honest, erryone liked teamleague the best... Really? The rivalry between Boxer and Yellow, Garimto's return to greatness, the birth of the Hero Toss, the rise of the unstoppable force that was Nada, the genius of Nal Ra, the epic aggression of July that overcome all odds, the cool-calculated management of Go Rush, the miracle tournament debut of Anytime, the final nobody expected Bisu to win, Stork mimicking Yellow in the finals, the inevitable domination from Jaedong, followed an even stupendous domination from Flash, to the final clash of between Jangbi and Fantasy. So much storylines would not have been made had the individual leagues not existed.
This post made me so sad I never watched BW.
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OSL > Proleague > MSL > foreigners trying and failing to get their progamer license through that qualifying tournament (can't remember name)
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EPT
