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United States47024 Posts
On April 16 2013 03:22 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Unless your playing in the highest level, counters does not play as much of a factor as level of skill. Actually I have to say that I feel quite the opposite. In lower levels counters play more of a role because people don't know how to work to their strengths and avoid their weaknesses as much, then when you get to a higher level counters don't matter as much because you have learnt how to play safe if you need to, or aggressive if you can.
The onus is on the stronger laner to suppress the weaker laner.
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On April 16 2013 03:55 TheLink wrote:
Vaynes beat Cait's all the time. Vayne is way stronger in an all-in fight the entire game, including early levels. Of course Cait should be able to kite but that is dependent on each players skill.
None of that matters if you can't farm. Also saying early level Vayne is better than early level Cait is pretty dumb imo. It's just not true.
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On April 16 2013 04:00 sung_moon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:57 WhiteDog wrote:
I pick Diana first always, who cares she can't be countered anyway.
She's not imba tho. I want to say Vlad/Swain do fairly well vs Diana, but that's just from my experiences playing as/vs. Diana. But not exactly a counter in that sense of the word. Yes Diana is fucked up.
Vlad/Swain? Fairly well? Unless its like Zed, Khazix, Karthus, etc you can't afford to do fairly well.
That said, Zed and Kha are the real reasons that midlane is a deathtrap right now.
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On April 16 2013 03:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:36 Juicyfruit wrote:
There are some lopsided matchups but most counters are exaggerated due to misplays by the disadvantaged side. Which is why Counters are more important at lower levels of skill. Like Poppy vs. Darius. A good Poppy can probably manage to not die and only fall a little behind in CS, whereas a Silver v. Silver is just gonna be a bloodbath.
But the question is whether you, as a player who's trying to improve, should care about counterpicking advantageous lanes all the time or embrace the fact that you're weaker in certain lanes and still try to do well.
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trying to counterpick too hard increases champ diversity so you can't improve too well with all the champs you're learning instead of trying to learn the role or the game better overall
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United States47024 Posts
If you want to win games, picking advantageous lanes will win you more games (assuming you aren't vastly better at one champ than the other) because naturally winning your lane means you have a greater influence on the outcome of the game than if you lost your lane (even if you performed good damage control).
But from the standpoint of improving, and not just winning/raising your rating, it is important to learn to play disadvantaged lanes.
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On April 16 2013 04:05 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:53 cLutZ wrote:On April 16 2013 03:36 Juicyfruit wrote:
There are some lopsided matchups but most counters are exaggerated due to misplays by the disadvantaged side. Which is why Counters are more important at lower levels of skill. Like Poppy vs. Darius. A good Poppy can probably manage to not die and only fall a little behind in CS, whereas a Silver v. Silver is just gonna be a bloodbath. But the question is whether you, as a player who's trying to improve, should care about counterpicking advantageous lanes all the time or embrace the fact that you're weaker in certain lanes and still try to do well.
I dunno. When S2 ended I went on an Olaf spree that started before the S3 item changes and my skill with Olaf kinda peaked at the same time the item changes came through. Then I got bored around the same time nerfs came through. But I don't think its viable to do something similar with Poppy, Kassadin, or even Jax right now.
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On April 16 2013 04:07 Slayer91 wrote:
trying to counterpick too hard increases champ diversity so you can't improve too well with all the champs you're learning instead of trying to learn the role or the game better overall
I dunno, picking renekton into every top lane works pretty well for me!  Croc > all.
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OMG RAMMUS IS SO COOL I GOTTA LEARN HIM FOR RANKED
On April 16 2013 03:51 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:39 Requizen wrote:
Going to buy Zac tonight. Can he toplane or should I just stick to jungle? Jungle imo. His ganks are incredibly strong and he's not a particularly strong laner, though with top lane farm he can be even tankier and more disruptive once teamfighting comes around. I dunno it's doable, but it's like top laning with Shyvana or something. Why bother?
Shyvana with multiple AoE cc, spammable AoE %max health, a 12s cd 1550 range "gap closer", and a 800 base damage, slow+single knock-up, MS buff, 75% tenacity ult.
I mean, I guess Quinn is Teemo with a crossbow then.
Plus Zac's "costs" and passive mean that he actually heals every single time he trades, he has superb sustain in lane, though he doesn't push hard like Shyvana does (he can still push fairly easily) and if you can catch him unaware the wind-up time on his E can be his downfall (it'll go on cd if you cc him wile he charges), and with top lane farm you just go Warmogs/SV then either Randuin's or Sunfire, gg you're an unkillable, unpeelable, naturally scaling beast.
As for Sivir vs Cait well... yeah, she has the biggest burst of all AD carries pre-6, doesn't change the fact that I'll wish you good luck to reach Cait even with Taric (you need him to get in range, stun her, and then you have to be in range too to unleash you combo before she Es away).
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On April 16 2013 03:30 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Unless your playing in the highest level, counters does not play as much of a factor as level of skill. As a top lane main in silver, I totally disagree. If you have a lane advantage ("Counter") and are anywhere near your opponent in skill, it's a lot easier to get ahead in farm / put pressure on the lane / win the lane. Sure, if I'm up against a Diamond top laner, it won't help me that I'm in an advantageous lane matchup, but I can do reliably very well if I have a favorable lane matchup against a gold or even plat level player. Especially when you consider that Lower level players don't always have total familiarity with every matchup and often play their champ / build their champ the same every game, a lane advantage can often be leveraged further than it can be at the top level, where players know how to play defensively and adapt and play to cover their ass in the disadvantage. It helps that "not losing" your lane is just as important as "winning" it, especially if the teams are close to even, but their strong player is your lane opponent and your strong player is off winning some other lane.
My point is if your in silver you should be learning to play the game, not win games. No doubt counter lane helps you in that elo to win games, but its just a crutch (insert smash's blog post about crutches). You lose so much understanding by trying to avoid bad matchups
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On April 16 2013 02:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Unless your playing in the highest level, counters does not play as much of a factor as level of skill.
That is so wrong it's not even funny.
What you are saying is that you can always outplay your opponent regardless of the match up - which is true - but whoever asked the question isn't going to become challenger tier in 1 day.
On April 16 2013 04:19 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:30 sylverfyre wrote:On April 16 2013 02:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Unless your playing in the highest level, counters does not play as much of a factor as level of skill. As a top lane main in silver, I totally disagree. If you have a lane advantage ("Counter") and are anywhere near your opponent in skill, it's a lot easier to get ahead in farm / put pressure on the lane / win the lane. Sure, if I'm up against a Diamond top laner, it won't help me that I'm in an advantageous lane matchup, but I can do reliably very well if I have a favorable lane matchup against a gold or even plat level player. Especially when you consider that Lower level players don't always have total familiarity with every matchup and often play their champ / build their champ the same every game, a lane advantage can often be leveraged further than it can be at the top level, where players know how to play defensively and adapt and play to cover their ass in the disadvantage. It helps that "not losing" your lane is just as important as "winning" it, especially if the teams are close to even, but their strong player is your lane opponent and your strong player is off winning some other lane. My point is if your in silver you should be learning to play the game, not win games. No doubt counter lane helps you in that elo to win games, but its just a crutch (insert smash's blog post about crutches). You lose so much understanding by trying to avoid bad matchups
I used to tutor calculus. One question people often ask is "how do I get better at calculus?". Since I have a master degree in mathematics, I tell him "FUCK CALCULUS JUST GET ON MY LEVEL YOU NUB AND DO THESE GRADUATE MATH COURSES INSTEAD". Am I being helpful here?
Seriously though, discussing counters is totally valid regardless of your skill level. It's possible to outplay a vastly superior lane opponent with a good match up - such as going Kassadin/LeBlanc against the old Katarina.
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Just play whatever you think is fun to play honestly.Everyone plays better if you are having a good time with w/e you are playing.You probably will win more anyway as well.
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Even I can beat Vayne as Cait, and I don't even own a proper set of ad runes.
Like literally all I have to do is CS, auto her with passive procs or when she goes in to CS while not sacrificing my own last-hitting. Keep minions and traps directly between you and her so she can't ever all in. If the support gets bush control (and with your traps, that's not hard) and wards worth a damn and the enemy jungler does anything but camp you all game, you shove Vayne out of lane every 2 minutes.
I find that for some counters you can get around some of the laning problems by just picking a weird skill order (or weird runes)-- sometimes it lets you CS, other times you do more damage/ live longer than they'd expect and gets you FB when they all-in you.
I don't advocate deliberately counterpicking yourself or putting yourself in a position to be counterpicked though. Maybe just ply blinds or something for that.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:21 Sufficiency wrote:
I used to tutor calculus. One question people often ask is "how do I get better at calculus?". Since I have a master degree in mathematics, I tell him "FUCK CALCULUS JUST GET ON MY LEVEL YOU NUB AND DO THESE GRADUATE MATH COURSES INSTEAD". Am I being helpful here?
That analogy is awful. Playing damage control in losing lanes isn't some natural progression from learning to suppress winning lanes. They're separate and equally important skills toward learning to play lanes.
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i spread my champ pool alot in the past but since i started to narrow it i kind of got better at alot of things. i rather have a small pool i can adapt with and only a minimum of snowballity in my pool.
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On April 16 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 04:21 Sufficiency wrote:
I used to tutor calculus. One question people often ask is "how do I get better at calculus?". Since I have a master degree in mathematics, I tell him "FUCK CALCULUS JUST GET ON MY LEVEL YOU NUB AND DO THESE GRADUATE MATH COURSES INSTEAD". Am I being helpful here? That analogy is awful. Playing damage control in losing lanes isn't some natural progression from learning to suppress winning lanes. They're separate and equally important skills toward learning to play lanes.
I don't see what you are getting at. He was saying that if you are <insert elo which he regards to be low>, you should be playing to get to his level, not to play to win. That's absurd.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:31 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:On April 16 2013 04:21 Sufficiency wrote:
I used to tutor calculus. One question people often ask is "how do I get better at calculus?". Since I have a master degree in mathematics, I tell him "FUCK CALCULUS JUST GET ON MY LEVEL YOU NUB AND DO THESE GRADUATE MATH COURSES INSTEAD". Am I being helpful here? That analogy is awful. Playing damage control in losing lanes isn't some natural progression from learning to suppress winning lanes. They're separate and equally important skills toward learning to play lanes. I don't see what you are getting at. He was saying that if you are <insert elo which he regards to be low>, you should be playing to get to his level, not to play to win. That's absurd.
No, he's saying you should be playing in a way that practices core skills, not playing in a way that deliberately avoids one aspect of the game (playing disadvantaged lanes) because it wins you more games. Which is totally valid.
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On April 16 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 04:31 Sufficiency wrote:On April 16 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:On April 16 2013 04:21 Sufficiency wrote:
I used to tutor calculus. One question people often ask is "how do I get better at calculus?". Since I have a master degree in mathematics, I tell him "FUCK CALCULUS JUST GET ON MY LEVEL YOU NUB AND DO THESE GRADUATE MATH COURSES INSTEAD". Am I being helpful here? That analogy is awful. Playing damage control in losing lanes isn't some natural progression from learning to suppress winning lanes. They're separate and equally important skills toward learning to play lanes. I don't see what you are getting at. He was saying that if you are <insert elo which he regards to be low>, you should be playing to get to his level, not to play to win. That's absurd. No, he's saying you should be playing in a way that practices core skills, not playing in a way that deliberately avoids one aspect of the game (playing disadvantaged lanes) because it wins you more games. Which is totally valid.
Wut yango said.
It'a fine to talk about counters on either a theoretical level or on the highest level, but talking about it as a solution in lower level of play just promotes evading the problem rather than troubleshooting the problem.
Also watch scarra's grilled interview, about playing against ambition.
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On April 16 2013 04:00 sung_moon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:57 WhiteDog wrote:
I pick Diana first always, who cares she can't be countered anyway.
She's not imba tho. I want to say Vlad/Swain do fairly well vs Diana, but that's just from my experiences playing as/vs. Diana. But not exactly a counter in that sense of the word. Yes Diana is fucked up.
Vlad and Swain can't kill Diana if she does not commit in trying to kill them. You can stay far, farm by spamming Q and last hit in good enough positions so that neither vlad nor swain can really hurt you.
And then you can 1/ push tower easily when your lane opponent leave lane because your passiv is godlike for this 2/ roam better than both swain and vlad because you are diana.
For me a "counter" is not an opponent that you can't kill, it's someone that will have a decisif advantage during a certain period and that can zone you, prevent you from getting any farm during a specific period, and kill you as soon as you make a mistake.
Also at lower level, a lot of people just play too much hero and think too much about "countering" their opponent. It's better to play something you are good with than something you don't know but will get you an advantage in lane.
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On April 16 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 04:31 Sufficiency wrote:On April 16 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:On April 16 2013 04:21 Sufficiency wrote:
I used to tutor calculus. One question people often ask is "how do I get better at calculus?". Since I have a master degree in mathematics, I tell him "FUCK CALCULUS JUST GET ON MY LEVEL YOU NUB AND DO THESE GRADUATE MATH COURSES INSTEAD". Am I being helpful here? That analogy is awful. Playing damage control in losing lanes isn't some natural progression from learning to suppress winning lanes. They're separate and equally important skills toward learning to play lanes. I don't see what you are getting at. He was saying that if you are <insert elo which he regards to be low>, you should be playing to get to his level, not to play to win. That's absurd. No, he's saying you should be playing in a way that practices core skills, not playing in a way that deliberately avoids one aspect of the game (playing disadvantaged lanes) because it wins you more games. Which is totally valid.
So basically if someone who is not in the <elo range wei2coolman perceives to be low>, he would have gotten a non-generic answer that actually describe what he wants to know about possible Diana matchups. If he is in the <elo range wei2coolman perceives to be low>, he would have gotten a generic answer of "GET ON MY LEVEL", which is not relevant to what he initially asked at all.
On April 16 2013 04:39 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:On April 16 2013 04:31 Sufficiency wrote:On April 16 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:On April 16 2013 04:21 Sufficiency wrote:
I used to tutor calculus. One question people often ask is "how do I get better at calculus?". Since I have a master degree in mathematics, I tell him "FUCK CALCULUS JUST GET ON MY LEVEL YOU NUB AND DO THESE GRADUATE MATH COURSES INSTEAD". Am I being helpful here? That analogy is awful. Playing damage control in losing lanes isn't some natural progression from learning to suppress winning lanes. They're separate and equally important skills toward learning to play lanes. I don't see what you are getting at. He was saying that if you are <insert elo which he regards to be low>, you should be playing to get to his level, not to play to win. That's absurd. No, he's saying you should be playing in a way that practices core skills, not playing in a way that deliberately avoids one aspect of the game (playing disadvantaged lanes) because it wins you more games. Which is totally valid. Wut yango said. It'a fine to talk about counters on either a theoretical level or on the highest level, but talking about it as a solution in lower level of play just promotes evading the problem rather than troubleshooting the problem. Also watch scarra's grilled interview, about playing against ambition.
Right. So if there is a student of mine who is a fresh man in college (an education level which is <I perceive to be low>) asking me about how to get better at calculus, I should totally just tell him that he should take some graduate level math courses instead because undergrad calculus teaches you nothing about real mathematics. Really good advice there, right?
On April 16 2013 04:41 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 04:00 sung_moon wrote:On April 16 2013 03:57 WhiteDog wrote:
I pick Diana first always, who cares she can't be countered anyway.
She's not imba tho. I want to say Vlad/Swain do fairly well vs Diana, but that's just from my experiences playing as/vs. Diana. But not exactly a counter in that sense of the word. Yes Diana is fucked up. Vlad and Swain can't kill Diana if she does not commit in trying to kill them. You can stay far, farm by spamming Q and last hit in good enough positions so that neither vlad nor swain can really hurt you. And then you can 1/ push tower easily when your lane opponent leave lane because your passiv is godlike for this 2/ roam better than both swain and vlad because you are diana. For me a "counter" is not an opponent that you can't kill, it's someone that will have a decisif advantage during a certain period and that can zone you, prevent you from getting any farm during a specific period, and kill you as soon as you make a mistake. Also at lower level, a lot of people just play too much hero and think too much about "countering" their opponent. It's better to play something you are good with than something you don't know but will get you an advantage in lane.
Sure, if Diana chooses to only last hit using Q, there isn't much Swain can do. But Diana's Q is on a 5.5 seconds cooldown, costs mana, and pushes her lane. Good luck CSing and maintaining the lane.
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EPT
