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On April 16 2013 02:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Unless your playing in the highest level, counters does not play as much of a factor as level of skill.
Actually I have to say that I feel quite the opposite.
In lower levels counters play more of a role because people don't know how to work to their strengths and avoid their weaknesses as much, then when you get to a higher level counters don't matter as much because you have learnt how to play safe if you need to, or aggressive if you can.
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On April 16 2013 03:13 wussleeQ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
play vayne (or another really short range champ) vs cait
then tell me there's no such thing as a counter or that counters dont matter sivir does well vs cait. lol
She pushes faster than you... (sure you have "free" mana if she set traps, but her Q costs less mana, and once you're oom you get shat on).
And even if you do that by pushing the lane, you'll only be able to farm, not outright beat her.
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On April 16 2013 03:13 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 16 2013 02:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
play vayne (or another really short range champ) vs cait
then tell me there's no such thing as a counter or that counters dont matter Counters exist, but unless you play at the utmost level, your better off learning how to play out the lane. Why do you think a lot of those high elo players got there with like a single champ? They learned to play the bad matchups as well. That's usually to about an equal part (or probably even higher) due to the "favored" player not knowing how to play the matchup either. Like, in Graves' days of glory I would sometimes play Cait and the lane was about even usually. Then one day I realized that Cait has an autoattack range and the matchup became easy as fuck, most ez botlane to date. So when you ask people for who counters what... I could tell you that I can win lane with Malz vs Diana any day of the week, against players that are generally 'better' than I am. But when I just tell a dude that never played Malz that he's a counter, he'll pick malz, not know wtf to do and still lose and it didn't help him one bit. And that is why talking about counters is dumb, it's not because they dont exist, it's because they practically don't matter to 95% of LoL's population.
That's just silly. Of course better player wins vs worse player. Of course a player amazing at a champion wins vs a player who can't win a champion. Isn't that completely obvious? It doesn't make counters any less valid, they still definitely exist. Most players play against players of their own skill level anyway.
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i'll play vayne against cait.
you might lose lane, but you might not lose game. it's very frustrating when people walk into a bad matchup or a cheese matchup and complain about that bad matchup and end up feeding in some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. it's one thing to be down 40 cs, it's another thing to be down 40 cs + 4 deaths. sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, be patient, and wait for the right opportunities to open up.
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On April 16 2013 03:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:13 Dandel Ion wrote:On April 16 2013 03:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 16 2013 02:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
play vayne (or another really short range champ) vs cait
then tell me there's no such thing as a counter or that counters dont matter Counters exist, but unless you play at the utmost level, your better off learning how to play out the lane. Why do you think a lot of those high elo players got there with like a single champ? They learned to play the bad matchups as well. That's usually to about an equal part (or probably even higher) due to the "favored" player not knowing how to play the matchup either. Like, in Graves' days of glory I would sometimes play Cait and the lane was about even usually. Then one day I realized that Cait has an autoattack range and the matchup became easy as fuck, most ez botlane to date. So when you ask people for who counters what... I could tell you that I can win lane with Malz vs Diana any day of the week, against players that are generally 'better' than I am. But when I just tell a dude that never played Malz that he's a counter, he'll pick malz, not know wtf to do and still lose and it didn't help him one bit. And that is why talking about counters is dumb, it's not because they dont exist, it's because they practically don't matter to 95% of LoL's population. That's just silly. Of course better player wins vs worse player. Of course a player amazing at a champion wins vs a player who can't win a champion. Isn't that completely obvious? It doesn't make counters any less valid, they still definitely exist. Most players play against players of their own skill level anyway.
Generally when I talk about counters I'm basing what I say on the assumption that both players can play their respective champs at a relatively equal skill level
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United States8298 Posts
On April 16 2013 02:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Unless your playing in the highest level, counters does not play as much of a factor as level of skill.
As a top lane main in silver, I totally disagree. If you have a lane advantage ("Counter") and are anywhere near your opponent in skill, it's a lot easier to get ahead in farm / put pressure on the lane / win the lane. Sure, if I'm up against a Diamond top laner, it won't help me that I'm in an advantageous lane matchup, but I can do reliably very well if I have a favorable lane matchup against a gold or even plat level player. Especially when you consider that Lower level players don't always have total familiarity with every matchup and often play their champ / build their champ the same every game, a lane advantage can often be leveraged further than it can be at the top level, where players know how to play defensively and adapt and play to cover their ass in the disadvantage.
It helps that "not losing" your lane is just as important as "winning" it, especially if the teams are close to even, but their strong player is your lane opponent and your strong player is off winning some other lane.
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On April 16 2013 03:26 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:24 Shikyo wrote:On April 16 2013 03:13 Dandel Ion wrote:On April 16 2013 03:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 16 2013 02:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
play vayne (or another really short range champ) vs cait
then tell me there's no such thing as a counter or that counters dont matter Counters exist, but unless you play at the utmost level, your better off learning how to play out the lane. Why do you think a lot of those high elo players got there with like a single champ? They learned to play the bad matchups as well. That's usually to about an equal part (or probably even higher) due to the "favored" player not knowing how to play the matchup either. Like, in Graves' days of glory I would sometimes play Cait and the lane was about even usually. Then one day I realized that Cait has an autoattack range and the matchup became easy as fuck, most ez botlane to date. So when you ask people for who counters what... I could tell you that I can win lane with Malz vs Diana any day of the week, against players that are generally 'better' than I am. But when I just tell a dude that never played Malz that he's a counter, he'll pick malz, not know wtf to do and still lose and it didn't help him one bit. And that is why talking about counters is dumb, it's not because they dont exist, it's because they practically don't matter to 95% of LoL's population. That's just silly. Of course better player wins vs worse player. Of course a player amazing at a champion wins vs a player who can't win a champion. Isn't that completely obvious? It doesn't make counters any less valid, they still definitely exist. Most players play against players of their own skill level anyway. Generally when I talk about counters I'm basing what I say on the assumption that both players can play their respective champs at a relatively equal skill level
Yeah, I think everyone understands this so we're arguing the wrong points.
If you had to go into a game against Diana, it's better not to listen to our advice as to what you should pick unless you're really good with one of the counters to Diana, and if you were, you wouldn't need our advice to tell you that champion was good against Diana.
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There are some lopsided matchups but most counters are exaggerated due to misplays by the disadvantaged side.
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This seems to have gotten a bit heated. My point wasn't to say there weren't champs that are just naturally better than others. It was more that people shouldn't look at them in isolation but also factor in the game as a whole.
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Going to buy Zac tonight. Can he toplane or should I just stick to jungle?
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On April 16 2013 03:39 Requizen wrote:
Going to buy Zac tonight. Can he toplane or should I just stick to jungle?
Top lane of course, you can play mid too.
zac is super fun :3
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On April 16 2013 03:31 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:26 ArchAngelSC wrote:On April 16 2013 03:24 Shikyo wrote:On April 16 2013 03:13 Dandel Ion wrote:On April 16 2013 03:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 16 2013 02:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
play vayne (or another really short range champ) vs cait
then tell me there's no such thing as a counter or that counters dont matter Counters exist, but unless you play at the utmost level, your better off learning how to play out the lane. Why do you think a lot of those high elo players got there with like a single champ? They learned to play the bad matchups as well. That's usually to about an equal part (or probably even higher) due to the "favored" player not knowing how to play the matchup either. Like, in Graves' days of glory I would sometimes play Cait and the lane was about even usually. Then one day I realized that Cait has an autoattack range and the matchup became easy as fuck, most ez botlane to date. So when you ask people for who counters what... I could tell you that I can win lane with Malz vs Diana any day of the week, against players that are generally 'better' than I am. But when I just tell a dude that never played Malz that he's a counter, he'll pick malz, not know wtf to do and still lose and it didn't help him one bit. And that is why talking about counters is dumb, it's not because they dont exist, it's because they practically don't matter to 95% of LoL's population. That's just silly. Of course better player wins vs worse player. Of course a player amazing at a champion wins vs a player who can't win a champion. Isn't that completely obvious? It doesn't make counters any less valid, they still definitely exist. Most players play against players of their own skill level anyway. Generally when I talk about counters I'm basing what I say on the assumption that both players can play their respective champs at a relatively equal skill level Yeah, I think everyone understands this so we're arguing the wrong points. If you had to go into a game against Diana, it's better not to listen to our advice as to what you should pick unless you're really good with one of the counters to Diana, and if you were, you wouldn't need our advice to tell you that champion was good against Diana.
good joke, nothing counters diana. she's soooo strong. i play her top mid jungle and support now. no reason to play any other champ
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On April 16 2013 03:39 Requizen wrote:
Going to buy Zac tonight. Can he toplane or should I just stick to jungle?
Jungle imo.
His ganks are incredibly strong and he's not a particularly strong laner, though with top lane farm he can be even tankier and more disruptive once teamfighting comes around. I dunno it's doable, but it's like top laning with Shyvana or something. Why bother?
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On April 16 2013 03:36 Juicyfruit wrote:
There are some lopsided matchups but most counters are exaggerated due to misplays by the disadvantaged side.
Which is why Counters are more important at lower levels of skill. Like Poppy vs. Darius. A good Poppy can probably manage to not die and only fall a little behind in CS, whereas a Silver v. Silver is just gonna be a bloodbath.
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Vaynes beat Cait's all the time. Vayne is way stronger in an all-in fight the entire game, including early levels. Of course Cait should be able to kite but that is dependent on each players skill.
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Baa?21248 Posts
Only bad players complain about counters.
It's why I always complain about counters.
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I pick Diana first always, who cares she can't be countered anyway.
She's not imba tho.
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On April 16 2013 03:51 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:39 Requizen wrote:
Going to buy Zac tonight. Can he toplane or should I just stick to jungle? Jungle imo. His ganks are incredibly strong and he's not a particularly strong laner, though with top lane farm he can be even tankier and more disruptive once teamfighting comes around. I dunno it's doable, but it's like top laning with Shyvana or something. Why bother?
at this point i think toplane shyvana is wayyyyy better than jungle shyvana.
jungle shyvana is awful.
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On April 16 2013 03:57 WhiteDog wrote:
I pick Diana first always, who cares she can't be countered anyway.
She's not imba tho.
I want to say Vlad/Swain do fairly well vs Diana, but that's just from my experiences playing as/vs. Diana. But not exactly a counter in that sense of the word.
Yes Diana is fucked up.
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On April 16 2013 03:23 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 03:13 wussleeQ wrote:On April 16 2013 02:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
play vayne (or another really short range champ) vs cait
then tell me there's no such thing as a counter or that counters dont matter sivir does well vs cait. lol She pushes faster than you... (sure you have "free" mana if she set traps, but her Q costs less mana, and once you're oom you get shat on). And even if you do that by pushing the lane, you'll only be able to farm, not outright beat her.
*shrug* i never lost to a cait as sivir so i wouldn't know. Q+W pushes wave super hard, landing a Q with sivir is huge damage already too, lane with taric and just burst her down early and win lane. auto Q auto W with taric does well over half someone's health early easily.
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EPT
