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[Patch 3.05: Balance Update] General Discussion - Page 163

Forum Index > LoL General
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koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
April 24 2013 07:00 GMT
#3241
MadLife (81%)

god
Chexx
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)11232 Posts
April 24 2013 07:01 GMT
#3242
On April 24 2013 16:00 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
MadLife (81%)

god


I think the lowest I saw was 70% ^^
WriterFollow me @TL_Chexx
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
April 24 2013 07:03 GMT
#3243
i think the new roster has better synergy. now korean team looks potentially the strongest zz given WE and TPA/S's current form. still super stoked for allstars.
Hey! Listen!
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 07:13:38
April 24 2013 07:11 GMT
#3244
On April 24 2013 09:33 ItsFunToLose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 09:31 overt wrote:
On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:
On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.

AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested.



Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee.


Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game.

+ Show Spoiler +
This whole "binary" nonsense needs to stop. If there's a point where melee ADC's are viable by tweaking a kit, its a proof of concept. There is clearly a gradient of options in between OP and UP.


Fiora's Riposte now also grants her a shield that scales with the damage she would have recieved + a modest AD ratio.

or

Fiora's Riposte now has 1/2/3/4/5 charges that may be reactivated within a short period of time to block incoming attacks. If one of your charges fails to block an attack(within the 1? second timer), the remaining charges are lost.

Master Yi's alpha strike and meditate now scale with AD instead of AP, but meditate makes you untargetable.

It is 100% possible to balance melee auto attackers(riven is not a melee carry, she is the perfect archetype for an AD Caster, Req.)



My point is that yango said a kit can't make up for the fact that you have to buy a defensive item as a melee hero. I disagree with that statement 100%. It is entirely possible to give enough defensive tools to a melee hero to avoid/mitigate damage and still build 4 offensive items.




If you gave Yi that kit I am pretty sure he would become EXTREMELY OP at ANY level of play.

Personally I think Tryndamere and Master Yi are already viable at any level of play in solo queue and are situational in tournament play. I regularly see AD Yi jungle and AD Tryndamere top and to me it seems they win more often than they lose.

Essentially I agree with Yango though - why does the definition for a "melee carry" have to be "a ranged carry in melee range". We already have Jax, Irelia, Riven, Master Yi (he even falls under your definition for melee carry, but somehow you think he's UP), Tryndamere (same with Yi).

Edit: I'm obviously late to the discussion but that's what happens when you discuss interesting things while I'm asleep
wat
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
April 24 2013 07:50 GMT
#3245
On April 24 2013 16:11 EquilasH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 09:33 ItsFunToLose wrote:
On April 24 2013 09:31 overt wrote:
On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:
On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.

AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested.



Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee.


Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game.

+ Show Spoiler +
This whole "binary" nonsense needs to stop. If there's a point where melee ADC's are viable by tweaking a kit, its a proof of concept. There is clearly a gradient of options in between OP and UP.


Fiora's Riposte now also grants her a shield that scales with the damage she would have recieved + a modest AD ratio.

or

Fiora's Riposte now has 1/2/3/4/5 charges that may be reactivated within a short period of time to block incoming attacks. If one of your charges fails to block an attack(within the 1? second timer), the remaining charges are lost.

Master Yi's alpha strike and meditate now scale with AD instead of AP, but meditate makes you untargetable.

It is 100% possible to balance melee auto attackers(riven is not a melee carry, she is the perfect archetype for an AD Caster, Req.)



My point is that yango said a kit can't make up for the fact that you have to buy a defensive item as a melee hero. I disagree with that statement 100%. It is entirely possible to give enough defensive tools to a melee hero to avoid/mitigate damage and still build 4 offensive items.




If you gave Yi that kit I am pretty sure he would become EXTREMELY OP at ANY level of play.

Personally I think Tryndamere and Master Yi are already viable at any level of play in solo queue and are situational in tournament play. I regularly see AD Yi jungle and AD Tryndamere top and to me it seems they win more often than they lose.

Essentially I agree with Yango though - why does the definition for a "melee carry" have to be "a ranged carry in melee range". We already have Jax, Irelia, Riven, Master Yi (he even falls under your definition for melee carry, but somehow you think he's UP), Tryndamere (same with Yi).

Edit: I'm obviously late to the discussion but that's what happens when you discuss interesting things while I'm asleep


I think the more apt description for LoL is a melee champ that has both the kit and scaling to deal relevant amounts of damage when everybody is at the 5/6 item stage. Champs like Riven, irelia Jax and the like count while someone like Shen or Garen wouldn't.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
April 24 2013 08:08 GMT
#3246
I think Melee carries suck because their kits are awful in LoL. Why pick Yi, Trynd, GP, Fiora when you can be Irelia, Jax, Darius, Hecarim, Khazix, Nasus, Renekton, etc. All of those in the latter group have some major things in comming: High base damage, high scaling and relevancy while being able to build tanky. Compare it to DotA where melee carries are godlike because their kits are really strong and scale really well with items.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
April 24 2013 08:16 GMT
#3247
Someone forgot about Season 1, early Season 2 GP. Dat shit was awesome. Best kit for melee ADC. Plox revert GP back to amazing status. #riotplox
liftlift > tsm
Artok
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands2219 Posts
April 24 2013 08:31 GMT
#3248
On April 24 2013 17:16 wei2coolman wrote:
Someone forgot about Season 1, early Season 2 GP. Dat shit was awesome. Best kit for melee ADC. Plox revert GP back to amazing status. #riotplox

the most amazing rng only ulti ever, right?
Chun-li since ST
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
April 24 2013 08:31 GMT
#3249
I feel that currently melee ADCs are really just assassins without bursts.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
April 24 2013 08:32 GMT
#3250
Oh man, I don't know how to code in C++ at all now (haven't used it for 10+ years I think). This is going to take a while.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
April 24 2013 09:09 GMT
#3251
On April 24 2013 17:08 Dusty wrote:
I think Melee carries suck because their kits are awful in LoL. Why pick Yi, Trynd, GP, Fiora when you can be Irelia, Jax, Darius, Hecarim, Khazix, Nasus, Renekton, etc. All of those in the latter group have some major things in comming: High base damage, high scaling and relevancy while being able to build tanky. Compare it to DotA where melee carries are godlike because their kits are really strong and scale really well with items.


A large part of my point was that melee carries such as Yi and Tryndamere don't suck. I don't know how much you guys encounter jungle Yi or Trynd top on NA, but when I face it on EU it always seems damn strong.
wat
Wrag
Profile Joined February 2012
France124 Posts
April 24 2013 09:23 GMT
#3252
On April 24 2013 17:32 Sufficiency wrote:
Oh man, I don't know how to code in C++ at all now (haven't used it for 10+ years I think). This is going to take a while.


Just get a Visual Studio C# Express edition (free) and do it in C#.
Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 09:29:15
April 24 2013 09:25 GMT
#3253
On April 24 2013 18:09 EquilasH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 17:08 Dusty wrote:
I think Melee carries suck because their kits are awful in LoL. Why pick Yi, Trynd, GP, Fiora when you can be Irelia, Jax, Darius, Hecarim, Khazix, Nasus, Renekton, etc. All of those in the latter group have some major things in comming: High base damage, high scaling and relevancy while being able to build tanky. Compare it to DotA where melee carries are godlike because their kits are really strong and scale really well with items.


A large part of my point was that melee carries such as Yi and Tryndamere don't suck. I don't know how much you guys encounter jungle Yi or Trynd top on NA, but when I face it on EU it always seems damn strong.


I know a dude that plays a lot of smite/tp jungle Yi (Mechzen on NA) and he either gets fed and carries or doesn't get fed and just loses because he's an un-fed Yi. Nobody plays Trynd top on NA as far as I know, except for yesterday where I opened nintendude's stream and he played him vs Nasus, which is probably one of the only lanes that Trynd can do decently in.

Somewhat related, what elo/level are you playing on in EU

Oh you know what, I am actually reminded of someone named KillerKast (I think) on NA that plays a lot of Fiora and he usually does well playing her mid. Maybe he's on to something with his playstyle, who knows.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
April 24 2013 09:32 GMT
#3254
On April 24 2013 18:23 Wrag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 17:32 Sufficiency wrote:
Oh man, I don't know how to code in C++ at all now (haven't used it for 10+ years I think). This is going to take a while.


Just get a Visual Studio C# Express edition (free) and do it in C#.

And learn another language... ? I rather relearn c++..
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
April 24 2013 09:41 GMT
#3255
Problem with so-called melee-carries is lategame. They get destroyed in seconds in teamfights.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Wrag
Profile Joined February 2012
France124 Posts
April 24 2013 09:41 GMT
#3256
On April 24 2013 18:32 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 18:23 Wrag wrote:
On April 24 2013 17:32 Sufficiency wrote:
Oh man, I don't know how to code in C++ at all now (haven't used it for 10+ years I think). This is going to take a while.


Just get a Visual Studio C# Express edition (free) and do it in C#.

And learn another language... ? I rather relearn c++..


Think of C# as naïve C/C++, almost identical syntax and none of all the technical trouble (pointers, unmanaged memory, etc). Just a suggestion
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 10:07:42
April 24 2013 10:01 GMT
#3257
On April 24 2013 17:08 Dusty wrote:
I think Melee carries suck because their kits are awful in LoL. Why pick Yi, Trynd, GP, Fiora when you can be Irelia, Jax, Darius, Hecarim, Khazix, Nasus, Renekton, etc. All of those in the latter group have some major things in comming: High base damage, high scaling and relevancy while being able to build tanky. Compare it to DotA where melee carries are godlike because their kits are really strong and scale really well with items.


Melee carries in dota also have the advantage of 2 things

1.Casters generally have the base damages of leblanc, but no or minimal item scaling. This combined with BKB(magic immunity(some exceptions)) means that they generally fall off damage-wise as you approach lategame.

2. Gold distribution. Gold ratios in LoL towards lategame are generally around 1.0 for support, 1.2-4 for jungle, 1.3-1.5 for top, and 1.5-1.8 for mid/ADC. In Dota you'd have something like 1.0-2.0 for the supports, 2.5-3.5ish for the solos, and then roughly 4-6 for the hard carry. That has a lot to do with why carries look so incredibly godlike.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Gaslo
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland951 Posts
April 24 2013 10:12 GMT
#3258
Why did people stop playing Vi? Were the nerfs so bad, or did people just move to the next FOTMs? I have 6100 IP, and were thinking about her or Khazix. He used to be like 100% pick/ban in my elo, now i havent seen even one in the last 2 weeks.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
April 24 2013 10:21 GMT
#3259
On April 24 2013 19:01 Amui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 17:08 Dusty wrote:
I think Melee carries suck because their kits are awful in LoL. Why pick Yi, Trynd, GP, Fiora when you can be Irelia, Jax, Darius, Hecarim, Khazix, Nasus, Renekton, etc. All of those in the latter group have some major things in comming: High base damage, high scaling and relevancy while being able to build tanky. Compare it to DotA where melee carries are godlike because their kits are really strong and scale really well with items.


Melee carries in dota also have the advantage of 2 things

1.Casters generally have the base damages of leblanc, but no or minimal item scaling. This combined with BKB(magic immunity(some exceptions)) means that they generally fall off damage-wise as you approach lategame.

2. Gold distribution. Gold ratios in LoL towards lategame are generally around 1.0 for support, 1.2-4 for jungle, 1.3-1.5 for top, and 1.5-1.8 for mid/ADC. In Dota you'd have something like 1.0-2.0 for the supports, 2.5-3.5ish for the solos, and then roughly 4-6 for the hard carry. That has a lot to do with why carries look so incredibly godlike.

Do they still have stunprocs in dota? Being able to keep your opponent permanently stunned did alot for melee viability as I recall (along with huge amounts of anti-fun for the opponent)
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 10:35:23
April 24 2013 10:34 GMT
#3260
On April 24 2013 18:41 Osmoses wrote:
Problem with so-called melee-carries is lategame. They get destroyed in seconds in teamfights.


Not always. Jax, Irelia, and Riven if they're well itemized can do some sick damage unless they're just completely locked down by crowd control.

Maybe it's different for Irelia in Season 3 but it used to be that even if you were underfarmed relative to their adc or top laner you could still do significant damage to their adc before you got killed, and if you were decently farmed you were blowing their adc or ap carry before they had a chance to respond. Same goes for Jax and Riven.

And the thing about Jax/Irelia/Riven is you can itemize both tankiness and damage and it's really your choice on how you approach it. You can grab randuins/something tanky along with your damage items. Granted it's a bit more then what adc's have to do, but hey it's a melee champ. What did you expect?
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
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