EPTNot that I'm any good with melee champs, I just love Hydra, and it is a beautiful item on her.
[Patch 3.05: Balance Update] General Discussion - Page 161
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
Not that I'm any good with melee champs, I just love Hydra, and it is a beautiful item on her. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
Obvious fix for melee carries is to give them item-specific balance changes | ||
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ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
spirit visage, pop a bluepot and have 40% cdr, be absurdly tanky out of the jungle, and spam W on your entire team for insane amounts of damage given the amount of gold spent to do it. It's not entirely a "melee carry is bad" problem, and more of a power creep, new champions are too good problem. But I do agree with you in the sense that melee carries can never truly exist while being forced to build defensively. multiplicative scaling is just too strong, and needing to get into melee range makes it impossible to get your damage off before dying. So you run into a balance problem across all levels of play. Suddenly balancing fiora for the LCS means tens of thousands of bronze players stop playing because of how hard she carries. Or a new melee carry gets released that is more toxic than pre-nerf/rework/nerf eve. The problem is that riot profits off of bronze league, and subsidizes its challenger league. Maybe its the case that melee carries will never be viable unless they are gamebreakingly abusive at low levels of play. and maybe riot is okay with that. --------------- On April 24 2013 10:21 obesechicken13 wrote: I don't know why I even have to argue this. Tryndamere doesn't flip a coin to win games. because you said "lol 50% win/loss, who cares!~" | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:05 TheYango wrote: You've made Tryndamere a good champion, ok. Now how does this address the *systemic* issue of the "melee carry question" as posed by others? As I said, I see the issue as posed related to Tryndamere, Fiora, and Yi, as a complaint about *specific champions* being too weak. The issue of "the melee carry" as a role is a separate matter. We have melee carries. The only reason people think we don't is because they have some arbitrary unrealistic view of what a melee carry is. EDIT: In retrospect I realize how I posted was confusing because the post that you responded too should have been an addendum to my response to clutz, rather than a stand-alone post. So your proposition is a kit that has a power curve so lopsided that Riot would never include it in their game? I don't think the proposed Trynd ult change both fixes Trynd and keeps him as a melle carry. My point is that A melle carry almost certainly needs to have the lopsided powercurve that Riot would probably not include in their game. Its not sane to have a champion with the ability to do high end damage while having decent tankiness at all levels of the game. For instance, Jax and Irelia always build more towards survivability after item 1 because they try to kill carries and need to survive the other team's damage. If you build them more glass-cannony, you really can only clean up rather than try to damage the other teams tanks. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
The biggest issue with melee carries; is their ability to damage "tanks". Killing carries is easy enough, that's what assassins like Zed is for; but melee carry vs tanks usually end up as a silly fight. | ||
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qanik
Denmark1899 Posts
1. A bonus ad scaling on Yi's Q at around 0.6 - 1.0 bonus ad. This will make AD yi more viable in teamfights while not making ap Yi OP. Or 2. Give his Meditate a persistant armor/mr buff that fades away over time after the channeling breaks(Say your level 5 meditate breaks, the 300 armor/mr bonus would drop from 300 to 0 over 2-3 seconds.). Yi is innately squishy and very susceptible to CCs which makes this skill kinda meh especially for ad yi because it's so easily broken and even when it's not you are essentially taking yourself out of the fight by not participating in the DPS. So by retaining some of the defensive stats after the channeling allow him to dish out a little more dmg before dying. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:38 Zergneedsfood wrote: Tryndamere should be allowed to throw his sword. he does that when he dies. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:38 Zergneedsfood wrote: Tryndamere should be allowed to throw his sword. Don't you know thats how his spin move works? He swings/throws his sword, but holds onto it, and the power of the throw/swing, causes him to be dragged forward. Similar to how Thor "flies", by throwing his hammer, and holding onto it. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:35 wei2coolman wrote: Who said melee carries have to be autoattacked focused? There are plenty of ranged ADC's taht get plenty done without autoattacks; especially in mid game. Notables include MF/Graves. Items like SotD are probably is whats necessary for melee carries to be viable. The biggest issue with melee carries; is their ability to damage "tanks". Killing carries is easy enough, that's what assassins like Zed is for; but melee carry vs tanks usually end up as a silly fight. Zed's Sustained dps is probably not that different than Graves' right now (if you build them with the same items). Compare AD 48.6 (+3.4) AS 0.658 (+3.1%) Steroid = +25% Bonus AD AD 51 (+3.1) AS 0.625 (+2.9%) Steroid = 70% Attack speed | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:28 ItsFunToLose wrote: "The Melee Carry" basically needs overpowered kit utility if they're relying on itemization and autoattacks alone. As you move away from that, and start giving a champion abilities that nuke for burst damage, the kit can become more relaxed. Even fiora has a lot of burst potential, and she's still on the bad side because she just gets blown up if she builds offensive stats, and she doesn't do anything useful if she builds defensively. Unlike zac or elise, and %maxhealth powercreep which allows them to build pure tank and still do bonkers amounts of damage. Zac can literally just build spirit of the elder lizard and spirit visage, pop a bluepot and have 40% cdr, be absurdly tanky out of the jungle, and spam W on your entire team for insane amounts of damage given the amount of gold spent to do it. It's not entirely a "melee carry is bad" problem, and more of a power creep, new champions are too good problem. But I do agree with you in the sense that melee carries can never truly exist while being forced to build defensively. multiplicative scaling is just too strong, and needing to get into melee range makes it impossible to get your damage off before dying. So you run into a balance problem across all levels of play. Suddenly balancing fiora for the LCS means tens of thousands of bronze players stop playing because of how hard she carries. Or a new melee carry gets released that is more toxic than pre-nerf/rework/nerf eve. The problem is that riot profits off of bronze league, and subsidizes its challenger league. Maybe its the case that melee carries will never be viable unless they are gamebreakingly abusive at low levels of play. and maybe riot is okay with that. --------------- because you said "lol 50% win/loss, who cares!~" On April 24 2013 09:49 obesechicken13 wrote: As long as the melee carries have a 50% win rate who really cares? The entire game is fairly binary. Most of my games are one sided and the presence of ad yi doesn't change anything. It's different when what I said is paraphrased out of context. Yi doesn't make the game unfun just by being in it. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
So are we saying that mellee carrys can't exist in LoL? or that there have been none released yet? I think that if riot release a champion with an inverse mindset, it could be a true melee carry. What I mean by that is instead of relasing a champion with hight base skill where we build tanky and stay relevant.. they release a champion with very good innane tankyness, great scalling but shit base damage. The closest we have right now i think is tryndamere (R) and maybe jax (gets tanky thanks to R, still has hudge bases tho). Said released "melee carry" champion would have poop earlygame cause laning is hard if your damage sux, maybe would even need a support to babysit him early. And it could make a fun and very different champion from all the bruserish gapcloser melees we have right now. I didn't adress the kitability of such a champ. I am not too sure about how to deal with it cause on one part I think it's ok to have some champions that are being kited, itemization and teamcomp should work around a melee carry type and help him with this problem. But since it would be so dependant on team factors, a champion like this without 20 jumps would be unpopular in a soloqueue environement and therefore not good to release | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:23 jcarlsoniv wrote: I would really love Fiora to be good. I want to buy her, she looks so fun just to dick around with. Not that I'm any good with melee champs, I just love Hydra, and it is a beautiful item on her. She's really fun. She destroys a lot of people in mid lane super hard and has a few top lane match ups that are favorable for her. But then you have to push your advantage really fast because her team fighting is so meh. You can always split push as her like a Master Yi except she doesn't really push as fast as Yi does and she doesn't escape from ganks as fast either. You already basically play Fiora like an assassin since CC's just insta-gib you except your burst is pretty underwhelming and you end up feeling like you should've just played Kha'Zix or Zed or something. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:35 wei2coolman wrote: The biggest issue with melee carries; is their ability to damage "tanks". Killing carries is easy enough, that's what assassins like Zed is for; but melee carry vs tanks usually end up as a silly fight. I feel like this is something that goes unsaid nearly every time "Melee Carries viability" comes up. Carries don't just kill other carries, they kill tanks too. Honestly, I think that we already have some melee carries but nobody acknowledges them as such or calls them such. Jax, Irelia, Riven and other "bruisers that build a serious core of damage but dont do as hot when they go puretank" fit the category. Riot likes to call them Fighters - they are, in essence, somewhat like what you want out of melee carries. They have more meat on their bones than ranged carries, but they still like to build at least one CORE damage item (BORK or Triforce on Jax/Irelia depending on what season you're in, BT on Riven.) It's silly to distinguish how much damage you're getting from abilities vs steroids here. You get in melee range, and you stab people in the face really friggin hard. Your kit needs to include mobility, durability, and CC, because you still are a melee and need to stick to people to get all your damage out. You aren't so much of a "use 2 abilities and back off" - you get more damage if you pour on the heat, and you don't really "run out" of damage at least for a while. Assassins can also be melee carries, if they get ahead of the enemy tanks (possibly just by giving them more farm - doesn't necessarily need to be by getting killfed. This is very possible on, for example, Zed.) as long as they don't "Run out of damage" after their first target. That's what carries are. They're sustained damage. Damage that doesn't run out. Zed definitely has more damge for his first target, but he can still keep murdering and being mobile. So, I'm going to argue that Riven and Jax ARE the melee carries you're looking for. They just aren't named Tryndamere and Master Yi. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:38 Zergneedsfood wrote: Tryndamere should be allowed to throw his sword. ![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120601005602/leagueoflegends/images/e/e5/Draven_OriginalLoading.jpg) | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Vanka
China1336 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On April 23 2013 16:17 sob3k wrote: Taric Sivir Bot Sona Mid Warwick Jungle Gangplank/Jarvan top team aura whore If they pop everything at max rank, each of them gets: 75ad 30% movespeed 20+ armor 50ap 70% Attack speed That's a lot of free stats....in fact its 9321gold worth of them if you bought them at the shop lol if they whore every aura item they recieve an additional 10Armor 30Mr 20ad 10% lifesteal 30ap 20% spellvamp -20 AS to enemies -20 Mr to enemies sounds pretty interesting, obviously fighting as five would be pretty important. Also all your lanes would be pretty terrible. Lose lane win game! This is one of the team comps I want to try out. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + And it seems very interesting! | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
On April 24 2013 12:05 Sufficiency wrote: Oh man. I am doing some research on creating an algorithm that will allow me to find a way to get to 0 RP (thus "beating" the game) with the minimal amount of RP purchases... and it seems more difficult than I originally envisioned. + Show Spoiler + And it seems very interesting! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapsack_problem | ||
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