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United States47024 Posts
On April 24 2013 09:14 onlywonderboy wrote:
Just keep up the trend of copying some Dota items and bring in BKB haha. (Like adding Bottle)
BKB serves to do the latter point I mentioned--that is, it brings un-peelable threats into the game, which in turn demands that ranged carries itemize for defense. This creates closer ranged/melee itemization parity between ranged and melee carries, because ranged carries are still required to buy defensive stats due to having to face un-peelable threats.
Also, DotA does not benefit from as many multiplicative damage stats as LoL. Only damage, attack speed, and armor reduction. Crit is available through singular effects and not generally purchasable/stackable.
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The only way to balance said melee champions would be giving them steroids that become more powerful with more enemies around, sorta like J4's shield but with offensive stats. Otherwise you'll always end up with a situation where they're either too strong at dueling or too weak in teamfights, but either way it's not really fun. I say just get rid of the idea altogether and leave Fiora and Trynd to be dominion and TT fodders 
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On April 24 2013 09:14 onlywonderboy wrote:
Just keep up the trend of copying some Dota items and bring in BKB haha. (Like adding Bottle)
In the old days of Riot, they said they would never go near bkb type items. This was a long time ago though, so I don't know if the design philosophy has changed since then.
Personally, I don't think it will happen, mostly because it will make require way too much effort to properly balance a lot of the melee champions currently in game if they add in that type of item.
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United States47024 Posts
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested.
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i dun want to talk about redefining terms like melee carry per the rules in this thread
but damn nasus.
also played a game where tryndamere hit me twice in late game and i died.
it's kinda funny because they're opposites of each other. nasus can do a ton of damage without building a damage item (sheen item, maybe) and tryndamere's ult lets him build damage without having to worry too much about defense.
On April 24 2013 09:14 onlywonderboy wrote:
Just keep up the trend of copying some Dota items and bring in BKB haha. (Like adding Bottle)
i think mercurial scimitar makes them want to do something like that without overcommitting. the speed buff just isn't enough.
items in dota are really interesting anyway because of the str/agi/int system.
bkb can give damage, health, and the active. and if you're a strength hero then you get even more damage. but it's not necessarily a damage item.
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On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested.
Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration, but reduces his damage by 50%. Kits can 100% make up for being melee.
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On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee.
Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game.
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On April 24 2013 09:31 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee. Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game.
This whole "binary" nonsense needs to stop. If there's a point where melee ADC's are viable by tweaking a kit, its a proof of concept. There is clearly a gradient of options in between OP and UP.
Fiora's Riposte now also grants her a shield that scales with the damage she would have recieved + a modest AD ratio.
or
Fiora's Riposte now has 1/2/3/4/5 charges that may be reactivated within a short period of time to block incoming attacks. If one of your charges fails to block an attack(within the 1? second timer), the remaining charges are lost.
Master Yi's alpha strike and meditate now scale with AD instead of AP, but meditate makes you untargetable.
It is 100% possible to balance melee auto attackers(riven is not a melee carry, she is the perfect archetype for an AD Caster, Req.)
My point is that yango said a kit can't make up for the fact that you have to buy a defensive item as a melee hero. I disagree with that statement 100%. It is entirely possible to give enough defensive tools to a melee hero to avoid/mitigate damage and still build 4 offensive items.
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On April 24 2013 09:33 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:31 overt wrote:On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee. Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game. This whole "binary" nonsense needs to stop. If there's a point where melee ADC's are viable by tweaking a kit, its a proof of concept. There is clearly a gradient of options in between OP and UP.
Proof of concept implies proof. There is not currently a "melee carry" that works in the definition that Riot has, aside from maybe Riven, and that's debatable.
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On April 24 2013 09:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:06 overt wrote:Morello said this though, Basically some items, but also play patterns that tend to have more escape potential or upfront burst. It'd make them more "assassin-y". So I guess the plan right now is to make Fiora, Trynd, and Yi into Kha'zix/Zed. Yi was already fundamentally assassin-y by nature of his kit--he's fundamentally reliant on getting resets to retain his combat power consistently through a fight. Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:08 cLutZ wrote:
Lets ignore the Riot forums (who most of the complainers really just want their favorite character to be made into a Zed/Khazix-like assassin), and basically define a melle ADC as a melle character that, at some defined lategame item level (say 3-4 core items) can chunk down Tanks with the speed of a ranged AD Carry, without being instantly killed of course.
I'd like to see someone try to design a character like that, even in the abstract. That's not a valid issue though, because the fundamental nature of being ranged in this game is that at 4 core items, a ranged carry can have all 4 items be offensive items, while a melee carry must have at least 1-2 of those items be defensive. At that point in the game, multiplicative scaling takes over as the predominant factor determining damage-dealing ability, not basic kit design, which is why every AD feels like they're strong damage dealers with 4 items regardless of their kits. So the only way to make melee carries deal comparable damage is to have ranged/melee itemization parity at that point. Which means either a) give melee carries so much inherent defense that they can function with 4 offensive items (not feasible), or b) shift the dynamic of the game to require ranged ADs to itemize significantly more defense to not die to offensive threats (again, AD players whined to hell and back about needing to build more defense in S3--you'd piss off more people than you'd please with this change). The other option is to remove several modes of multiplicative damage (e.g. remove crit as a stat from the game) so that damage doesn't scale multiplicatively over as many stats.
Obviously the "melle carry" would need to get either Free Damage or Free tankiness based on the other one being built ala Vlad's Passive.
On April 24 2013 09:15 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:08 cLutZ wrote:
I'd like to see someone try to design a character like that, even in the abstract.
. Fiora's E now gives 0.25 movespeed per minion killed while active permanently. Fiora's W, in addition to reflecting damage back to the attacker, now stores the raw(did the ad carry just crit me? lol) damage from the reflected auto attack and can be detonated in an area of effect by pressing W again.(2 seconds before going on CD with no AOE explosion) done.
I didn't say create a broken champ.
On April 24 2013 09:35 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:33 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:31 overt wrote:On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee. Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game. This whole "binary" nonsense needs to stop. If there's a point where melee ADC's are viable by tweaking a kit, its a proof of concept. There is clearly a gradient of options in between OP and UP. Proof of concept implies proof. There is not currently a "melee carry" that works in the definition that Riot has, aside from maybe Riven, and that's debatable.
I disagree that there has to be a "gradient". I agree you can balance the melle carry assuming X item level. However he would have to be pretty crappy before that item level, and would obviously be ridiculously strong past it.
It would be like Jax, except far more extreme.
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As long as the melee carries have a 50% win rate who really cares? The entire game is fairly binary. Most of my games are one sided and the presence of ad yi doesn't change anything.
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On April 24 2013 09:33 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:31 overt wrote:On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee. Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game. This whole "binary" nonsense needs to stop. If there's a point where melee ADC's are viable by tweaking a kit, its a proof of concept. There is clearly a gradient of options in between OP and UP. Fiora's Riposte now also grants her a shield that scales with the damage she would have recieved + a modest AD ratio. or Fiora's Riposte now has 1/2/3/4/5 charges that may be reactivated within a short period of time to block incoming attacks. If one of your charges fails to block an attack(within the 1? second timer), the remaining charges are lost. Master Yi's alpha strike and meditate now scale with AD instead of AP, but meditate makes you untargetable. It is 100% possible to balance melee auto attackers(riven is not a melee carry, she is the perfect archetype for an AD Caster, Req.) My point is that yango said a kit can't make up for the fact that you have to buy a defensive item as a melee hero. I disagree with that statement 100%. It is entirely possible to give enough defensive tools to a melee hero to avoid/mitigate damage and still build 4 offensive items.
AD yi, AD tryn, and fiora could possibly be balanced for pro play via numbers tweaks. But think of how OP they are in pre-30 games as it is. If you bring that level of OP-ness all the way to sub-gold then the game is going to be less fun.
Besides, champs like Jax already exist that "almost" are melee carries and are perfectly viable at the highest levels of play. (What's the difference between Jax and a "melee carry" anyway? Jax does huge amounts of damage lategame and relies on autoattacks, after all)
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On April 24 2013 09:49 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:33 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:31 overt wrote:On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration. Kits can 100% make up for being melee. Well yeah, if you make a champions kit that broken it can. If you made Fiora's ult do 5K True Damage she'd be the best champion in the game. This whole "binary" nonsense needs to stop. If there's a point where melee ADC's are viable by tweaking a kit, its a proof of concept. There is clearly a gradient of options in between OP and UP. Fiora's Riposte now also grants her a shield that scales with the damage she would have recieved + a modest AD ratio. or Fiora's Riposte now has 1/2/3/4/5 charges that may be reactivated within a short period of time to block incoming attacks. If one of your charges fails to block an attack(within the 1? second timer), the remaining charges are lost. Master Yi's alpha strike and meditate now scale with AD instead of AP, but meditate makes you untargetable. It is 100% possible to balance melee auto attackers(riven is not a melee carry, she is the perfect archetype for an AD Caster, Req.) My point is that yango said a kit can't make up for the fact that you have to buy a defensive item as a melee hero. I disagree with that statement 100%. It is entirely possible to give enough defensive tools to a melee hero to avoid/mitigate damage and still build 4 offensive items. AD yi, AD tryn, and fiora could possibly be balanced for pro play via numbers tweaks. But think of how OP they are in pre-30 games as it is. If you bring that level of OP-ness all the way to sub-gold then the game is going to be less fun. Besides, champs like Jax already exist that "almost" are melee carries and are perfectly viable at the highest levels of play. (What's the difference between Jax and a "melee carry" anyway? Jax does huge amounts of damage lategame and relies on autoattacks, after all)
Jax's damage lategame to tanks is not that good compared to an AD Carry, and if he built so that it was (I guess something like TF/Botrk into IE+Shiv/PD) he would just die.
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On April 24 2013 09:49 obesechicken13 wrote:
As long as the melee carries have a 50% win rate who really cares? The entire game is fairly binary. Most of my games are one sided and the presence of ad yi doesn't change anything.
Because having 50% W/L does not at all equate to a champ being enjoyable or toxic to play/play against.
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On April 24 2013 09:58 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:49 obesechicken13 wrote:
As long as the melee carries have a 50% win rate who really cares? The entire game is fairly binary. Most of my games are one sided and the presence of ad yi doesn't change anything. Because having 50% W/L does not at all equate to a champ being enjoyable or toxic to play/play against.
Twisted Fate's new ultimate:
Flip a coin: Lock either heads or tails. The game is then paused, a coin is tossed, and if Twisted fate guessed correctly his team wins. If wrong, loses. balanced!
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United States47024 Posts
On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration, but reduces his damage by 50%. Kits can 100% make up for being melee.
You've made Tryndamere a good champion, ok.
Now how does this address the *systemic* issue of the "melee carry question" as posed by others?
As I said, I see the issue as posed related to Tryndamere, Fiora, and Yi, as a complaint about *specific champions* being too weak. The issue of "the melee carry" as a role is a separate matter.
We have melee carries. The only reason people think we don't is because they have some arbitrary unrealistic view of what a melee carry is.
EDIT: In retrospect I realize how I posted was confusing because the post that you responded too should have been an addendum to my response to clutz, rather than a stand-alone post.
On April 24 2013 09:48 cLutZ wrote:
I disagree that there has to be a "gradient". I agree you can balance the melle carry assuming X item level. However he would have to be pretty crappy before that item level, and would obviously be ridiculously strong past it.
It would be like Jax, except far more extreme.
So your proposition is a kit that has a power curve so lopsided that Riot would never include it in their game?
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the whole gameplay of ranged ad carries evolves around positioning.
So you really cant have the same sustained ad damage on a champion that is also able to go into melee range without dying, because then he would be not balanced at all, the whole difficulty of ranged ad carries would not be there.
Why cant people be happy with champs like Riven?
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We had Melee carries: Jax and Irelia used to be high damage high defensive and good scaling champs.
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On April 24 2013 10:05 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:30 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 24 2013 09:21 TheYango wrote:
The core issue here has nothing to do with the champion kits at all, which is what people are missing. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling and how being able to have 4 damage items rather than 2 damage + defensive items creates a damage-dealing disparity that's far more than an individual champion kit can reasonably make up for.
AD champs have 4 multiplicative damage stats they can buy--AD, AS, Crit, Armor pen. The effect of all of these stats multiply each other, so doubling your gold value in offensive stats results in an astronomical increase in your actual DPS because your DPS is more or less a quartic function of gold invested. Tryndamere's ult now makes him immune to crowd control for the entire duration, but reduces his damage by 50%. Kits can 100% make up for being melee. You've made Tryndamere a good champion, ok. Now how does this address the *systemic* issue of the "melee carry question" as posed by others? As I said, I see the issue as posed related to Tryndamere, Fiora, and Yi, as a complaint about *specific champions* being too weak. The issue of "the melee carry" as a role is a separate matter. We have melee carries. The only reason people think we don't is because they have some arbitrary unrealistic view of what a melee carry is. EDIT: In retrospect I realize how I posted was confusing because the post that you responded too should have been an addendum to my response to clutz, rather than a stand-alone post.
The bigger issue has to do with damage scaling in this game in regards to items; not champion kits imo.
ADC's get their damage due to quadratic scaling; however the itemization to reach that acceptable damage points, takes up 4 slots. LW/PD/IE/BT+boots, leaves only 1 slot for defensive itemization.
If Riot wants to make melee carries viable; gunna have to make it so Melees can invest hugely into damage; without being as slot restricted. A solution might be to have crit itemization much more viable on melee's. A item that gives like 60% crit chance + 10% movespeed +10% lifesteal; could easily create a 2-item timing for melee characters; and toss in LW; voila 3 item melee carry now that could do pretty well.
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On April 24 2013 10:02 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 09:58 Craton wrote:On April 24 2013 09:49 obesechicken13 wrote:
As long as the melee carries have a 50% win rate who really cares? The entire game is fairly binary. Most of my games are one sided and the presence of ad yi doesn't change anything. Because having 50% W/L does not at all equate to a champ being enjoyable or toxic to play/play against. Twisted Fate's new ultimate: Flip a coin: Lock either heads or tails. The game is then paused, a coin is tossed, and if Twisted fate guessed correctly his team wins. If wrong, loses. balanced!
I don't know why I even have to argue this. Tryndamere doesn't flip a coin to win games.
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EPT
