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On April 06 2013 05:35 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 05:11 cLutZ wrote:On April 06 2013 05:03 Requizen wrote:
His heal isn't as spammable as people like to make it out to be, first off. I like that you're trading damage and sticking power to heal up. The only thing that makes him really difficult to balance is the stealth. Stealth has, traditionally, been utilized for squishy champions to assassinate/escape/not get hit while they do their job. Look at Twitch, Eve, Shaco, etc. Kha is a bad example because he's got the "I'm kind of a bruiser who can also pump out assassin damage" issue.
Rengar is a traditional bruiser who wants to stick to a target and lay into them with his autos and use his free defenses and AS to win fights. Giving him stealth is just awkward. I think if they modified it to give him a MS buff, allow him to Leap a couple times, and generate Ferocity, it'd be a wonderful bruiser steroid that doesn't have the potential to ruin games as badly as Stealth does. Well, when he was popular we did not have League of HP potions, but, he he could basically always force you to back before him, and with W max he could make you lose a wave + as a result. Edit: Also, you were only trading damage in the sense of Rengar's potential (which was more than most other champs of that tankiness). Now that you actually have to use EMP Q to do damage he is not very good. Edit 2: It is, and has been, my position that Rengar needs to lose 2 of: Heal, Manaless, Stealth, No-CD gapcloser, Ranged low/Snare to be balanced on a long-term basis. Eh, I think that's way overreacting. The heal isn't huge given the time needed to get to 5 Ferocity and how much you sacrifice for it. The slow isn't out of line with slows of other bruisers, other than maybe the CD at max rank. Even then, it's just a slow and not an AS slow like Wither, Ice Blast, or whatever Malphite's is called. As to the gap closer, it probably needs an ICD, but it's easily countered by, you know, avoiding brushes. You don't have to fight him in the middle of the jungle or whatever, if you position yourself correctly it's a completely useless passive unless he blows his ult.
The heal ALONE is fine, but heals on any manaless champion are problematic because you can't force them out of lane. The slow, again on its own, also fine, but it lets Rengar farm better in 2v1 lanes than someone like Jax, I would be fine with it if it had range closer to EQ strike or Fling. Right now it is basically Kayle Q/Ryze W. And, please explain how to avoid bushes in a sidelane.
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On April 06 2013 05:42 Alaric wrote:
How many Fiora players get Q at level 1 instead of W if their opponent didn't start mass consumables to destroy half their health with a Q-aa-Q-aa while having great sustain?
Also making Kha'Zix AP would only force Riot to nerf his heal and passive because his Q would still give him good dps (I mean technically his Q is the reason, along with vision jukes for passive, that give him good dps rather than Panth-level dps once he's used W/the reset from his E/all charges from his ult).
Where are these mysterious opponents that don't start mass consumables?
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I like flask. :<
But that's because I realised even if I start mass consumables I tend to use too many pots (including mana ones) so even if they let me bully my opponent I'm not really ahead on gold. Flask ftw.
Zac's sustain seems pretty strong as soon as his HP drops around half, looking at Stanley. o_o
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On April 06 2013 05:53 Alaric wrote:
Zac's sustain seems pretty strong as soon as his HP drops around half, looking at Stanley. o_o
Yeah, watching Zac's teamfighting in a team like TPA is a joy. First time his passive procced was under that tower, too.
V.nice of Flash while ulted to make sure everyone got knocked up in that final teamfight after KLH scattered.
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On April 06 2013 05:42 Alaric wrote:
How many Fiora players get Q at level 1 instead of W if their opponent didn't start mass consumables to destroy half their health with a Q-aa-Q-aa while having great sustain?
Matchup dependent, but its definitely a viable start (esp. vs champs who don't auto very often, i.e. Rumble, Vlad), especially if you're mid against all the mages who can't cope vs. Fiora. You're trading level 1 safety and guaranteed won trades (that bonus AD) for awhile, but that's perfectly fine since Fiora's best levels are 2-4ish anyways (when you can all-in pretty much anyone and come away with a kill unless they start cloth+5, that blasted fort pot start, or run a full armor runepage). Starting Q allows you to put very early harass down. I wouldn't do it if they had a way to respond and allow creep agro to take its toll (Irelia starting E [which she should do vs Fiora], for instance), but it's definitely valid.
The fact that Fiora's skill orders are so diverse is one of the best things about her, honestly (E max most situational).
On April 06 2013 05:44 Gahlo wrote:
Last time I brought that up I was shouted down. lol
I assume it's because: "Jax E oppppppp!" mentality, but that's silly. Fiora beats him even with his E pre-6 pretty damn hard, and the E has like 20s cd. If he doesn't use his E when Fiora uses hers, then Fiora wins the trade, and you can't use E to block her ultimate if E is on cd (which means Jax can't E+Q to initiate trades without autolosing).
If you want to counter Fiora in lane, pick Shen, Yorick, or Malphite, don't die pre-6, and stack armor+health, with Tabi. There you go: countered. Jax is a skill matchup (in the favor of Jax, but not that much).
Now if Riot went ahead and pushes through the W blocking on-hit effects like they say they're looking into, that shifts the Jax matchup into skill/even matchup, or even in Fiora's favor. It would also affect a number of her other top matchups pretty heavily; Garen loses harder, Darius matchup becomes heavily Fiora-favored, Shen matchup becomes less annoying, etc, so I understand why they're hesitant about it though.
EDIT:
On April 06 2013 05:52 sylverfyre wrote:
Where are these mysterious opponents that don't start mass consumables?
Mid laners who don't go fort pot maybe :p.
But if they start mass consumables vs. Fiora (unless they picked up a fort pot also [yay Riot nerfs it!]), they're asking to give up First Blood level 2-4ish without a full armor page or cloth+5.
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On April 06 2013 04:48 ticklishmusic wrote:
i want to level a smurf on NA, anyone interested in keeping me some company? user is halfshadow, i think i'm at like 6 or something.
also, would it be OK to start a TL "alternate summoners" list where we listed people's smurfs?
EDIT: based on the teaser stuff, i initially thought zac was going to be "evil" and kind of cho gath -eque (he wanted to eat the world). turns out he's like the cutest thing ever.
Get more gold than support next time!
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On April 06 2013 05:31 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Why do people insist on sending Jax vs Fiora? Like really, if they don't play Jax often, Fiora eats him and snowballs to all hell (provided it's a decent Fiora player, but then again there's only like 3 Fiora players in the whole world). It's not even her worst matchup by far.
is she good? im on verge of buying her but im afraid i will waste 6k ip on worthless hero when i dont have so many others good champions -.-
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On April 06 2013 06:08 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 05:31 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Why do people insist on sending Jax vs Fiora? Like really, if they don't play Jax often, Fiora eats him and snowballs to all hell (provided it's a decent Fiora player, but then again there's only like 3 Fiora players in the whole world). It's not even her worst matchup by far. is she good? im on verge of buying her but im afraid i will waste 6k ip on worthless hero when i dont have so many others good champions -.-
If you think she is a fun champ>buy.If not > don't.Really all there is to it  .
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She'll always be good if you make her work (I mean of course that guy who opened full consumables into philo+avarice and tried to farm passively against my Jax as GP didn't really try).
She isn't the best teamfighter or laner there is, and she doesn't have the burst of an assassin either, so... I believe she'd be a good pick to work around timely aggression (for her passive) and cooldown management in lane.
If they change her W, I wonder if they'd change Jax's E and Pantheon's passive too, they don't block everything (well iirc Panth's passive blocks almost everything, but Jax doesn't block on-hits either, and stuff like Nasus' Siphoning Strike and Xin's TSS go through it entirely).
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On April 06 2013 06:17 Alaric wrote:
She'll always be good if you make her work (I mean of course that guy who opened full consumables into philo+avarice and tried to farm passively against my Jax as GP didn't really try).
She isn't the best teamfighter or laner there is, and she doesn't have the burst of an assassin either, so... I believe she'd be a good pick to work around timely aggression (for her passive) and cooldown management in lane.
If they change her W, I wonder if they'd change Jax's E and Pantheon's passive too, they don't block everything (well iirc Panth's passive blocks almost everything, but Jax doesn't block on-hits either, and stuff like Nasus' Siphoning Strike and Xin's TSS go through it entirely).
Trundle q goes through it as well.When you pick jax for the first time and die from a trundle gank cause you thought you could 1v1 it's pretty humiliating :D.
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On April 06 2013 06:08 kongoline wrote:
is she good? im on verge of buying her but im afraid i will waste 6k ip on worthless hero when i dont have so many others good champions -.-
If you know how to play her, she's a monster mid and can hold her own at top. She also can consistently get multikills if you aren't too far behind (she's probably the champ I've gotten the most quadras and pentas on ever, even though I don't play her often: even shut down I've penta'd), because her E is on CD reset and clean up a fight. Very snowbally top lane, much like Riven top.
Just don't rush Hydra like newbie Fioras (it's a luxury, late game item: can't rely on enemy team to bunch up, and getting a LW is probably first priority given top laners will stack armor vs you). She's got good matchups (will rape any and all ranged top laners, except Kayle and maybe Jayce, and especially Nidalee+Vlad, and does exceptionally well mid lane), and bad matchups (Yorick, Shen, Malphite: unless they're bad and feed you an early kill or two).
She also requires strong knowledge of her matchups, and is probably not a good top lane FP. That being said, no one actually knows how to play vs. her anymore (see PICK JAX EVEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE MATCHUP spiel I was on), so that may be debatable. She is basically an melee carry/assassin, so it's not a good pick vs. every enemy team comp and in every team comp, but she's alot stronger then people realize. The amount of burst she has is actually quite insane if you have copious amounts of AD given her already strong sustained damage.
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On April 06 2013 06:06 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 04:48 ticklishmusic wrote:
i want to level a smurf on NA, anyone interested in keeping me some company? user is halfshadow, i think i'm at like 6 or something.
also, would it be OK to start a TL "alternate summoners" list where we listed people's smurfs?
EDIT: based on the teaser stuff, i initially thought zac was going to be "evil" and kind of cho gath -eque (he wanted to eat the world). turns out he's like the cutest thing ever. Get more gold than support next time!
its k, support had more gold than 3x players on the enemy team combined.
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With Fiora you gotta abuse the fact that you can win most trades with nearly any top laner thanks to her sustained damage and healing. Force fights as much as you can and if they stick around, you can dive with ult easily. Unfortunately, she kind of sucks if she doesn't snowball in lane and is pretty easily gankable if you're not careful.
I'm under the impression she's great for solo queue until really high levels of play, and even then she works if you're good with her.
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On April 06 2013 06:30 Requizen wrote:
With Fiora you gotta abuse the fact that you can win most trades with nearly any top laner thanks to her sustained damage and healing. Force fights as much as you can and if they stick around, you can dive with ult easily. Unfortunately, she kind of sucks if she doesn't snowball in lane and is pretty easily gankable if you're not careful.
I'm under the impression she's great for solo queue until really high levels of play, and even then she works if you're good with her.
Generally yes, but be careful given she doesn't have the best mana economy. Also note you can probably kill most top laners and mid laners levels 2-4 with a point in Q and W, plus ignite. Very few people expect the sheer amount of damage she does in early levels. As noted, she's susceptible to ganks given relative fragility and lack of hard escapes (Q, E, and R can all act as situational escapes). Honestly, the best way to deter jungler/gank pressure is to be strong enough to either kill the top laner and jungler if they shows up (not as hard as it sounds given how well she snowballs), or kill one then use E's MS to get away. She's best against squishy enemy teams; pretty subpar vs really tanky ones.
I haven't seen her in competitive though outside that time M5 played it vs TSM (back when Kennen top was all the rage, Darien picked Fiora: predictable result, poor Dyrus+TSM).
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On April 06 2013 05:31 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Why do people insist on sending Jax vs Fiora? Like really, if they don't play Jax often, Fiora eats him and snowballs to all hell (provided it's a decent Fiora player, but then again there's only like 3 Fiora players in the whole world). It's not even her worst matchup by far.
Never, ever had a problem with Fiora as Jax. I do play him a lot though. Dunno how this is supposed to be difficult. She uses burst of speed, you use your spin. When she hits 6, you use it on her ult instead. Unless you let her all in you at level 2, Jax just dumps all over her. What exactly is supposed to be difficult about this?
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On April 06 2013 06:08 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 05:31 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Why do people insist on sending Jax vs Fiora? Like really, if they don't play Jax often, Fiora eats him and snowballs to all hell (provided it's a decent Fiora player, but then again there's only like 3 Fiora players in the whole world). It's not even her worst matchup by far. is she good? im on verge of buying her but im afraid i will waste 6k ip on worthless hero when i dont have so many others good champions -.-
Fiora is ridiculous amounts of fun. People already covered most of what I would've mentioned. If you snowball in lane it becomes really frustrating to lane against her as she's a god at tower diving due to her ult. She probably has more negatives than positives though and is one of the most niche picks in the game at this moment imo. Team fighting as her is very hard and anytime I play her anymore when team fights break out I always feel like I could do a lot better as nearly any other melee champion in the game (unless I'm crazy fed or something).
As was mentioned she has lots of favorable match ups in mid lane...but if you really want to play an AD mid laner with lots of favorable match ups just play Kha'Zix. He has more match ups he wins in mid and the ones he loses can't really punish him like they could punish Fiora.
If you get behind in lane as Fiora it becomes really difficult to stay in lane. If you get camped as Fiora it becomes impossible to do anything but farm at tower. With that said if the enemy team has a jungler that won't gank and if you can pick a match up that's favorable she punishes people harder than almost anyone else since your damage is very high in early levels. She's probably the single most high risk/low reward champion in the game (even if you get fed the enemy team can ruin your day if they have a decent amount of CC and they defend well). But christ is she fun to play.
Like I think ideal conditions to play Fiora would be the enemy team is low on CC and their top laner is Vlad/Nid/Kennen or you're gonna go mid lane against someone you beat really hard (squishy low CC mids with bad early wave clear).
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oh my god I just played thresh with a cait against a karma/lux/taric trilane
it didn't work at all, they couldn't kill us and all ended up completely underfarmed and worthless and the jungler would just sweep through and we'd get triple kills. And the then the game went on another 44 minutes. Because my team was completely allergic to objectives, refuse to take like one turret, go farm top when open inhib with 4 of them dead, refuses to group, refuses to baron.
most painful win I've ever had, we are pushing t2 mid after killing their fed top garen, see the trilane pushing our T2 bot...one person teleports and 2 more back to defend instead of just winning the game or sending one person to clear the creeps (we have 7-1 lux). goood fucking lord.
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On April 06 2013 06:45 zer0das wrote:
Never, ever had a problem with Fiora as Jax. I do play him a lot though. Dunno how this is supposed to be difficult. She uses burst of speed, you use your spin. When she hits 6, you ult. Unless you let her all in you at level 2, Jax just dumps all over her. What exactly is supposed to be difficult about this?
That is how you beat Fiora. That and buy a Warden's mail+tabi early on and let your base damages do your work post-6.
It's more difficult versus a good Fiora however, when they watch your Counterstrike cooldown. Moreover, pre-6, Fiora beats Jax without her E, if he doesn't E. So she can just auto you when you CS. You're not going to be able to respond effectively with her W blocking return AAs, and from there she can push you out. If you use your E to get retaliation, she can then use her E.
I've played the matchup on the other side alot, so I know how to beat Jax with Fiora. Deviate from the max Q which is the more standard skill order and max W, and Jax becomes more or less reliant on his E to successfully trade with Fiora, who can initiate multiple small trade and engagements to whittle Jax down. If Jax goes for a big engagement, Fiora has the tools to respond.
If she doesn't utilize her early game advantage to keep Jax down, Jax will just naturally pull ahead. Until then, however, she can bully him quite heavily+get kills if Jax isn't careful.
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Every time I've looked at picking up Fiora I play her once and then just go back to Irelia. Yes, you don't have the same trading power super early, but once you're level 7-9 you basically have a similar kit but with more resilience, and I'd much rather fight anything midgame or later on Irelia.
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On April 06 2013 06:56 sylverfyre wrote:
Every time I've looked at picking up Fiora I play her once and then just go back to Irelia. Yes, you don't have the same trading power super early, but once you're level 7-9 you basically have a similar kit but with more resilience, and I'd much rather fight anything midgame or later on Irelia.
Irelia's my other go to top laner (outside of Galio), who doubles as my generalist top pick. :p
They're similar, I agree, though there are situations where Fiora is better (Nidalee; Fiora es best counter).
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EPT
