EPTYou're misunderstanding the argument. Yango and other pro-RNG people aren't saying that a single crit or dodge doesn't affect the game. It definitely does. However, a single crit/dodge doesn't determine the outcome of the game. That's a big difference.
[Patch 3.03: Quinn] General Discussion - Page 149
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
You're misunderstanding the argument. Yango and other pro-RNG people aren't saying that a single crit or dodge doesn't affect the game. It definitely does. However, a single crit/dodge doesn't determine the outcome of the game. That's a big difference. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:17 Ryuu314 wrote: You're misunderstanding the argument. Yango and other pro-RNG people aren't saying that a single crit or dodge doesn't affect the game. It definitely does. However, a single crit/dodge doesn't determine the outcome of the game. That's a big difference. I'm pretty sure he understands, he's just arguing the opposite. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
which of you are going to MLG? i know suess is and i plan to hang out with him there. anyone else? if so, are you driving there, and do you live moderately close? i'm still looking for someone to help me pick up frommaplestreet at dallas ft. worth at 11pm cst on friday night, i will pay for gas i just don't want to do 2 round trip cab rides for 1 person :| i'll give you some velocity swag too!! :D | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:17 Ryuu314 wrote: You're misunderstanding the argument. Yango and other pro-RNG people aren't saying that a single crit or dodge doesn't affect the game. It definitely does. However, a single crit/dodge doesn't determine the outcome of the game. That's a big difference. If it effects the game it can determine the outcome of the game. Which was my point. A single won teamfight can snowball a game, and indeed should snowball a game unless the team which wins makes mistakes or were going to lose anyway due to skill/champion selection. Sure there exist games like that but to suggest there are only games like that is absurd We expect that the team that is ahead will win(all things equal) and critical strikes can change who is ahead. Ergo critical strikes change who we expect to win (which it will only do if it actually changes who wins games). The question is simply how much we are willing to accept that in order to achieve a mechanic which lets ADC's exist. That is a big deal and its not mitigated by saying that the LLN applies to crit rates. On March 15 2013 07:30 phyvo wrote: I knew I should have taken the real math version of statistics in college instead of the fake social sciences version. Worst course decision I ever made and now look at me pay for it... though I hear that real statistics doesn't start until grad school anyway. The social science version is the real version... or at least will be once you get to the point of actually doing social science. The main reason for this is because the vast majority of statistical advancement comes from social sciences departments. The physicists and chemists don't need advanced methods because their shit is comparatively simple to deal with. That being said all you need to know to do most linear statistics is basic linear algebra. Write everything as a matrix and then solve. If you can't solve then figure out why you can't solve and fix the problem. Since most of the work has been done*, the main problem is understanding which approach you should use and why unless you're doing theoretical work or your data set is particularly unique. *well not really but probably close enough for your data set | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:26 gtrsrs wrote: hey dudes, gonna post this again before i leave for dallas which of you are going to MLG? i know suess is and i plan to hang out with him there. anyone else? if so, are you driving there, and do you live moderately close? i'm still looking for someone to help me pick up frommaplestreet at dallas ft. worth at 11pm cst on friday night, i will pay for gas i just don't want to do 2 round trip cab rides for 1 person :| i'll give you some velocity swag too!! :D Seuss has a car and lives in Dallas. Didn't you ask him? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
Every attack adds between 0-100 crit. which adds to a crit "meter" and every time it hits or goes over 100 the meter resets and the next attack will crit. I think that would make it less RNG based. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:32 Goumindong wrote: If it effects the game it can determine the outcome of the game. Which was my point. A single won teamfight can snowball a game, and indeed should snowball a game unless the team which wins makes mistakes or were going to lose anyway due to skill/champion selection. Sure there exist games like that but to suggest there are only games like that is absurd We expect that the team that is ahead will win(all things equal) and critical strikes can change who is ahead. Ergo critical strikes change who we expect to win (which it will only do if it actually changes who wins games). The question is simply how much we are willing to accept that in order to achieve a mechanic which lets ADC's exist. That is a big deal and its not mitigated by saying that the LLN applies to crit rates. The problem is that your argument depends on a world where all things are equal and that quite simply isn't the case in a game of LoL. Teams do make mistakes and teams do gain edges based on skill/champ selection. I'd go so far to say every game of LoL is impacted more by who makes the most mistakes and who has the most skill/better team comp than anything else. I mean sure, if every single game was 5 Annie bots v. 5 Annie bots will all skills disabled, with 0 minion pathing issues, with 0 items, 0 masteries, 0 runes, and pre-determined creep aggro patterns, then yes that crit RNG will effectively determine the outcome of the game. But LoL isn't that simple. If you get hit by a lvl 1 crit, you adjust your play to accommodate that. You don't proceed as though the situation hasn't changed; doing so is a mistake. Also, If it effects the game it can determine the outcome of the game. That's true, but it's one single variable out of thousands or more variables that determine the outcome of the game. On March 15 2013 08:51 Dusty wrote: I dunno, I think I would like a crit system that works like so: Every attack adds between 0-100 crit. which adds to a crit "meter" and every time it hits or goes over 100 the meter resets and the next attack will crit. I think that would make it less RNG based. As far as I know, LoL already uses a pseudo-random system which more or less does what you described. | ||
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Zooper31
United States5713 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:51 Dusty wrote: I dunno, I think I would like a crit system that works like so: Every attack adds between 0-100 crit. which adds to a crit "meter" and every time it hits or goes over 100 the meter resets and the next attack will crit. I think that would make it less RNG based. Interesting way to think about it. Then it turns crit into an every 3-4 auto attack and you wait to charge it up etc lol. The reason people love and hate crit is the same reason, the randomness and the rush of excitement you get when you actually do crit. I think it's fine the way it is imo. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:40 cLutZ wrote: If 1 Crit didn't affect the outcome of a game people wouldn't be so afraid of a charged Ashe passive at lvl 1. I dunno if afraid is the right word. It's more, "don't be stupid and face check that bush because they have an Ashe." Even if she gets a level 1 crit off it usually just sets you a bit behind at level 1. Which admittedly is a bigger deal in S3 since every ADC opens Dblade. Even if Ashe uses her 1 crit at level 1 and you play so stupid that you end up giving first blood partially due to it...it's not the crit that gave Ashe first blood. It's you playing stupid. And even giving a team first blood doesn't guarantee a loss. Besides all of that, once you have at least IE+Zeal getting crits aren't as random or lucky anymore. They're guaranteed to happen with the system Riot uses. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:39 phyvo wrote: Seuss has a car and lives in Dallas. Didn't you ask him? i did, and he will be too busy theorycrafting on friday night to be able to help :c (i kid, but i did ask him, and he's not available) HENCE WHY I NEED HELP FROM OTHER SOURCES | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:59 Zooper31 wrote: Interesting way to think about it. Then it turns crit into an every 3-4 auto attack and you wait to charge it up etc lol. The reason people love and hate crit is the same reason, the randomness and the rush of excitement you get when you actually do crit. I think it's fine the way it is imo. The reason they didn't do this is because they didn't want guaranteed crits on enemy champions that you could just charge up on minions. Having separate meters for players and minions is just convoluted, as is an arbitrarily reduced amount for hitting minions instead of champions or removing the ability to crit minions. In any event, I hate any and all forms of RNG in games. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:55 Ryuu314 wrote: The problem is that your argument depends on a world where all things are equal and that quite simply isn't the case in a game of LoL. Teams do make mistakes and teams do gain edges based on skill/champ selection. I'd go so far to say every game of LoL is impacted more by who makes the most mistakes and who has the most skill/better team comp than anything else. No, my argument does NOT depend on a world where all things are equal. My argument depends on a world where critical strikes can effect the outcome of fights. If critical strikes cannot effect the outcome of fights then my argument does not hold... which I explained already in the main post. I do not believe we live in a world in which the damage that an ADC does has no determination as to the outcome of a fight. I do not believe we live in a world in which the outcome of fights bottom lane do not determine which ADC is ahead and I do not believe we live in a world in which the ADC that is ahead has no effect on the outcome of the game. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:55 Ryuu314 wrote: The problem is that your argument depends on a world where all things are equal and that quite simply isn't the case in a game of LoL. Teams do make mistakes and teams do gain edges based on skill/champ selection. I'd go so far to say every game of LoL is impacted more by who makes the most mistakes and who has the most skill/better team comp than anything else. I mean sure, if every single game was 5 Annie bots v. 5 Annie bots will all skills disabled, with 0 minion pathing issues, with 0 items, 0 masteries, 0 runes, and pre-determined creep aggro patterns, then yes that crit RNG will effectively determine the outcome of the game. But LoL isn't that simple. If you get hit by a lvl 1 crit, you adjust your play to accommodate that. You don't proceed as though the situation hasn't changed; doing so is a mistake. Also, If it effects the game it can determine the outcome of the game. That's true, but it's one single variable out of thousands or more variables that determine the outcome of the game. As far as I know, LoL already uses a pseudo-random system which more or less does what you described. I am not convinced. The system is probably as random as RNG itself. The crit system is most likely based on a Markov chain. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 15 2013 09:13 Sufficiency wrote: I am not convinced. The system is probably as random as RNG itself. The crit system is most likely based on a Markov chain. I am not familiar with RNG systems, why would you use a Markov Chain to generate crits? That being said, the crit system was changed specifically to be less random and have fewer streaks than a true random system would have intentionally by the designers. Afaik no tests have been done to ascertain a pattern but it would be an interesting line of analysis since being able to manipulate crits when you want them is very strong. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1312 Posts
Charging up for a 'crit' already happens in LoL, just take a look at Caitlyn. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On March 15 2013 09:16 Goumindong wrote: I am not familiar with RNG systems, why would you use a Markov Chain to generate crits? That being said, the crit system was changed specifically to be less random and have fewer streaks than a true random system would have intentionally by the designers. Afaik no tests have been done to ascertain a pattern but it would be an interesting line of analysis since being able to manipulate crits when you want them is very strong. Let me give you a simple example. Suppose you want a character to have 50% chance to crit, but with a LOW chance of consecutively critting, what you can do is to make a Markov chain with two states, A (crit) and B (not crit). Then you just need to set it up such that once you are in one of the states, you have a (say) 10% chance of staying at that state, and a 90% chance of leaving that state. This ensures that your chance of critting again after one crit to be 10% instead of 50%. Overall, however, your chance to crit is still 50% - it's easy to see what the stable distribution is. You can make this work for any % of crit chance with some easy arithmetic. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On March 15 2013 09:03 overt wrote: I dunno if afraid is the right word. It's more, "don't be stupid and face check that bush because they have an Ashe." Even if she gets a level 1 crit off it usually just sets you a bit behind at level 1. Which admittedly is a bigger deal in S3 since every ADC opens Dblade. Even if Ashe uses her 1 crit at level 1 and you play so stupid that you end up giving first blood partially due to it...it's not the crit that gave Ashe first blood. It's you playing stupid. And even giving a team first blood doesn't guarantee a loss. Besides all of that, once you have at least IE+Zeal getting crits aren't as random or lucky anymore. They're guaranteed to happen with the system Riot uses. Its not about playing stupid, its that it changes what playing smart is. You can go from a strong lane that needs to shutdown Ashe early, to one that needs jungle pressure to do so. Playing smart is a dumb saying, because it assumes the other side does not. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On March 15 2013 09:34 zulu_nation8 wrote: crits really arent that big of a deal. Not since after critplank have I seen anyone lose lane because of random crits. Pls imagine a draven axe crit.Almost instant win lane lolz. | ||
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