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[Patch 3.03: Quinn] General Discussion - Page 142

Forum Index > LoL General
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wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 14 2013 01:21 GMT
#2821
http://clgaming.net/news/433-doublelift-breaks-down-ad-carry-itemization

Interesting read; I found it funny how he's like "Everyone goes botrk, ergo it must be op'd"
but then in the next thing states " Every role in the game has a go-to build and that's fine"
liftlift > tsm
Amarok
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia2003 Posts
March 14 2013 01:35 GMT
#2822
On March 14 2013 04:09 Seuss wrote:
Grinding levels had little to do with the lack of healers and tanks in LFD. Healing/tanking required a higher level of personal responsibility and/or knowledge, especially tanking. If all it took was levels the addition of dual-speccing would have solved the disparity instantly.

If nothing else, WoW LFD showed that even when there is an overwhelming incentive to do so, the majority of people will refuse to adapt. Despite all the incentives there was always a much, much longer queue for DPS than the other roles. While some people might take the chance to branch out, I don't imagine LoL would be much different.


What's interesting is that the knowledge/responsibility paradigm is the complete opposite in LoL than it is in WoW. In LoL the popularity runs Mid=Top>ADC>>Jung>>>Supp usually because people want a role where they will have an impact on the game (I believe support has far from the lowest impact in soloQ but that's how people think). The mentality of most LoL players at champion select is "I have to carry this group of noobs" rather than "I have to make sure we manage to be as cohesive as possible as a team" which is extraordinarily stupid. DoubleLift might carry some players, but SoloQSilverplayerxx needs to work with his team to be effective.

I'd love for LoL to get to a point where the first pick is a Nunu and the first pick on the opposing team says "I play a good Sona, I'm going to play support and counter the shit out of this Nunu", after which 5th pick says "Actually I'm a 1800 support smurf and Sona is my main. Grab Sona and I'll swap a mid so you don't get countered." No one bitches over roles, just gets on with doing what they do best for the team.
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
March 14 2013 01:45 GMT
#2823
I would say the higher elo you go the more teamwork is required. There are basic scenarios such as your jungler getting invaded, or grouping to stop a baron that requires a team to work together for the purpose of winning. On the other hand the lower elo you go the more often you can get so fed out of your mind that it doesn't matter what the team does. I estimate about 80% of the games in my experience at the highest elo bracket have been very pleasant, and in about 90% of my 2k elo+ games from preseason 3, there were no childish fights over roles. As people move up to care more about elo, and gain more knowledge about the game they automatically become more open minded and relaxed I feel like. But that is not to say high elo games are much more unforgiving, and most people do care if you're not trying your best.
YouGotNothin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States907 Posts
March 14 2013 01:48 GMT
#2824
On March 14 2013 10:35 Amarok wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2013 04:09 Seuss wrote:
Grinding levels had little to do with the lack of healers and tanks in LFD. Healing/tanking required a higher level of personal responsibility and/or knowledge, especially tanking. If all it took was levels the addition of dual-speccing would have solved the disparity instantly.

If nothing else, WoW LFD showed that even when there is an overwhelming incentive to do so, the majority of people will refuse to adapt. Despite all the incentives there was always a much, much longer queue for DPS than the other roles. While some people might take the chance to branch out, I don't imagine LoL would be much different.


What's interesting is that the knowledge/responsibility paradigm is the complete opposite in LoL than it is in WoW. In LoL the popularity runs Mid=Top>ADC>>Jung>>>Supp usually because people want a role where they will have an impact on the game (I believe support has far from the lowest impact in soloQ but that's how people think). The mentality of most LoL players at champion select is "I have to carry this group of noobs" rather than "I have to make sure we manage to be as cohesive as possible as a team" which is extraordinarily stupid. DoubleLift might carry some players, but SoloQSilverplayerxx needs to work with his team to be effective.

I'd love for LoL to get to a point where the first pick is a Nunu and the first pick on the opposing team says "I play a good Sona, I'm going to play support and counter the shit out of this Nunu", after which 5th pick says "Actually I'm a 1800 support smurf and Sona is my main. Grab Sona and I'll swap a mid so you don't get countered." No one bitches over roles, just gets on with doing what they do best for the team.


Sounds like ELO Heaven.
I got nothin'...
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 14 2013 01:52 GMT
#2825
On March 14 2013 10:48 YouGotNothin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2013 10:35 Amarok wrote:
On March 14 2013 04:09 Seuss wrote:
Grinding levels had little to do with the lack of healers and tanks in LFD. Healing/tanking required a higher level of personal responsibility and/or knowledge, especially tanking. If all it took was levels the addition of dual-speccing would have solved the disparity instantly.

If nothing else, WoW LFD showed that even when there is an overwhelming incentive to do so, the majority of people will refuse to adapt. Despite all the incentives there was always a much, much longer queue for DPS than the other roles. While some people might take the chance to branch out, I don't imagine LoL would be much different.


What's interesting is that the knowledge/responsibility paradigm is the complete opposite in LoL than it is in WoW. In LoL the popularity runs Mid=Top>ADC>>Jung>>>Supp usually because people want a role where they will have an impact on the game (I believe support has far from the lowest impact in soloQ but that's how people think). The mentality of most LoL players at champion select is "I have to carry this group of noobs" rather than "I have to make sure we manage to be as cohesive as possible as a team" which is extraordinarily stupid. DoubleLift might carry some players, but SoloQSilverplayerxx needs to work with his team to be effective.

I'd love for LoL to get to a point where the first pick is a Nunu and the first pick on the opposing team says "I play a good Sona, I'm going to play support and counter the shit out of this Nunu", after which 5th pick says "Actually I'm a 1800 support smurf and Sona is my main. Grab Sona and I'll swap a mid so you don't get countered." No one bitches over roles, just gets on with doing what they do best for the team.


Sounds like ELO HeavenKorea.

Moderator
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 14 2013 01:57 GMT
#2826
On March 14 2013 10:48 YouGotNothin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2013 10:35 Amarok wrote:
On March 14 2013 04:09 Seuss wrote:
Grinding levels had little to do with the lack of healers and tanks in LFD. Healing/tanking required a higher level of personal responsibility and/or knowledge, especially tanking. If all it took was levels the addition of dual-speccing would have solved the disparity instantly.

If nothing else, WoW LFD showed that even when there is an overwhelming incentive to do so, the majority of people will refuse to adapt. Despite all the incentives there was always a much, much longer queue for DPS than the other roles. While some people might take the chance to branch out, I don't imagine LoL would be much different.


What's interesting is that the knowledge/responsibility paradigm is the complete opposite in LoL than it is in WoW. In LoL the popularity runs Mid=Top>ADC>>Jung>>>Supp usually because people want a role where they will have an impact on the game (I believe support has far from the lowest impact in soloQ but that's how people think). The mentality of most LoL players at champion select is "I have to carry this group of noobs" rather than "I have to make sure we manage to be as cohesive as possible as a team" which is extraordinarily stupid. DoubleLift might carry some players, but SoloQSilverplayerxx needs to work with his team to be effective.

I'd love for LoL to get to a point where the first pick is a Nunu and the first pick on the opposing team says "I play a good Sona, I'm going to play support and counter the shit out of this Nunu", after which 5th pick says "Actually I'm a 1800 support smurf and Sona is my main. Grab Sona and I'll swap a mid so you don't get countered." No one bitches over roles, just gets on with doing what they do best for the team.


Sounds like ELO Heaven.


And when you lose, the opposing team honors you, invites you over for tea so you can go over the replay.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
March 14 2013 02:07 GMT
#2827
Well, I just joined the league of scumbag Karma owners.
Amarok
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia2003 Posts
March 14 2013 02:14 GMT
#2828
On March 14 2013 10:45 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I would say the higher elo you go the more teamwork is required. There are basic scenarios such as your jungler getting invaded, or grouping to stop a baron that requires a team to work together for the purpose of winning. On the other hand the lower elo you go the more often you can get so fed out of your mind that it doesn't matter what the team does. I estimate about 80% of the games in my experience at the highest elo bracket have been very pleasant, and in about 90% of my 2k elo+ games from preseason 3, there were no childish fights over roles. As people move up to care more about elo, and gain more knowledge about the game they automatically become more open minded and relaxed I feel like. But that is not to say high elo games are much more unforgiving, and most people do care if you're not trying your best.


That's mostly because people at higher ELO have a better understanding of the game and understand how necessary teamwork is. Getting fed out of your mind only works if there's a skill discrepancy and 95% of the time that doesn't happen at any ELO. People just think they're better than they are so they want to "carry" when they've played 500 games at a particular ELO and been unable to do so. Because of "heavies" no doubt.

I play at high Silver and things like Baron grouping and invades happen regularly and people don't know how to react to them. They're usually too focused on things that will help them "carry" like farming bottom, recalling to grab that uber item or chilling at top tower before minions have spawned so they don't miss any cs.
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
March 14 2013 02:26 GMT
#2829
On March 14 2013 11:07 Gahlo wrote:
Well, I just joined the league of scumbag Karma owners.

Dat free 3150 IP skin. I actually like the way new Karma looks, but who am I to pass up a skin opportunity
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
March 14 2013 02:31 GMT
#2830
Hence I'd like to say it's a matter of paying your dues since most of the problems described by low elo such as role calling, lack of communication, unresponsive teammates, etc doesn't occur nearly as often at high elo. But ofc that's not a solution, and millions of people complaining deserve some kind of response. I do agree with an initiative to transform the atmosphere of solo queue into one that's more team oriented. I've had to unlearn a lot of habits from solo queue for 5s, and there are certain gimmicks I do to win games in solo queue but can never try in 5s. I also think the problems may vary from server to server, and thus has to do with the culture of LoL in each individual region rather than the system itself, which kinda absolves Riot of responsibility.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
March 14 2013 02:38 GMT
#2831
I also think that the new ranked system makes it harder for the competitive scene in NA because there is no official ranking, divison does not equal elo, harder to track players, harder to find players. And the most visible players in challenger are not the same as the highest elos of previous seasons.
Amarok
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia2003 Posts
March 14 2013 02:40 GMT
#2832
On March 14 2013 11:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Hence I'd like to say it's a matter of paying your dues since most of the problems described by low elo such as role calling, lack of communication, unresponsive teammates, etc doesn't occur nearly as often at high elo. But ofc that's not a solution, and millions of people complaining deserve some kind of response. I do agree with an initiative to transform the atmosphere of solo queue into one that's more team oriented. I've had to unlearn a lot of habits from solo queue for 5s, and there are certain gimmicks I do to win games in solo queue but can never try in 5s. I also think the problems may vary from server to server, and thus has to do with the culture of LoL in each individual region rather than the system itself, which kinda absolves Riot of responsibility.


I don't disagree with any of that. I just feel like a lot of the problem is attitude with a lot of players on this level. They're perfectly fine mechanically, but they have this idea that the only way to win is to hard carry so they play selfishly.
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
March 14 2013 02:41 GMT
#2833
that attitude extends all the way to the highest elo, just look at rain man, but there's a difference between carrying by playing selfishly and carrying by playing correctly.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
March 14 2013 03:25 GMT
#2834
On March 14 2013 11:41 zulu_nation8 wrote:
that attitude extends all the way to the highest elo, just look at rain man, but there's a difference between carrying by playing selfishly and carrying by playing correctly.


silsol?
Carrilord has arrived.
Koenig99
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada904 Posts
March 14 2013 03:33 GMT
#2835
Dear lord.....Lantyr playing near perfect Lee Sin on NA with 250ms. OP as fuck.
YouGotNothin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States907 Posts
March 14 2013 03:40 GMT
#2836
On March 14 2013 11:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I also think that the new ranked system makes it harder for the competitive scene in NA because there is no official ranking, divison does not equal elo, harder to track players, harder to find players. And the most visible players in challenger are not the same as the highest elos of previous seasons.


Lolking.net has a "lolking score" that seems to estimate your ELO, does anyone know how accurate it is (as far as being similar to Riot's ELO)? Maybe this could help track the top players. However, I can't seem to find a good list of the top lolking score players.
I got nothin'...
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
March 14 2013 03:48 GMT
#2837
lolking score is based on divisions and points, elo is hidden.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17303 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-14 03:57:40
March 14 2013 03:50 GMT
#2838
On March 14 2013 12:33 Koenig99 wrote:
Dear lord.....Lantyr playing near perfect Lee Sin on NA with 250ms. OP as fuck.

No he wasn't. He made a large number of mistakes, but he's playing against gold players and got away with most of them.
twitch.tv/cratonz
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
March 14 2013 03:56 GMT
#2839
oh Craton, always keeping it real.

ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
March 14 2013 03:59 GMT
#2840
real hateful
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
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