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On February 19 2013 02:30 TheYango wrote:
Wait, so we've come to the point where we're discussing how to nerf a champ not even when they are FotM, but the week before they're expected to become FotM?
The champion after Quinn is too strong. He needs a longer cooldown on his ultimate, and less range on his Q.
More seriously, I agree. Even though we all know Thresh is too strong, it's presumptuous of us to assume we know how to fix him when he hasn't even been out that long.
I also haven't seen that many Threshs in ranked yet, though I imagine that will change when players see him constantly picked or banned in LCS.
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so uh
I just played with QualityPlayer aka BEST AP TRYND WORLD aka ALL I DO IS WIN..
and he just trashed InvertedComposer's Singed with his AP Trynd. I'm pretty sure AP Trynd is now a thing.
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LOL the whole time I thought his name was "ALL I DO IS SPIN" because it would fit so much.
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United States23745 Posts
On February 19 2013 03:15 Dusty wrote:
so uh
I just played with QualityPlayer aka BEST AP TRYND WORLD aka ALL I DO IS WIN..
and he just trashed InvertedComposer's Singed with his AP Trynd. I'm pretty sure AP Trynd is now a thing.
Reminds me of when people were abusing AP Rengar, slap a 1.0 AP ratio on a skill and people will find a way to abuse it lol.
Edit: granted the double cast made it more like a 2.0 ratio.
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On February 19 2013 03:25 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:15 Dusty wrote:
so uh
I just played with QualityPlayer aka BEST AP TRYND WORLD aka ALL I DO IS WIN..
and he just trashed InvertedComposer's Singed with his AP Trynd. I'm pretty sure AP Trynd is now a thing. Reminds me of when people were abusing AP Rengar, slap a 1.0 AP ratio on a skill and people will find a way to abuse it lol.
Tell that to Ashe lol
On a side note, I'm kind of sad that most abilities don't have a 1.0 AP ratio. I feel like that was their original intent (mousing over your ability power stat gives a tooltip that's something like "Ability power: 30 Your abilities do 30 more damage" although few champs actually have an ability that does 30 more damage with 30 AP. If I were in charge, I'd make all AP items/runes/masteries give 20% less AP, so we can bump all of the ~0.8 ratios up to 1.0
It doesn't actually solve any problem and is silly though.
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AP Trynd can win a lot of lanes normal Trynd can't, but using his spin offensively is real terror -- I guess you'd have to rely on CDR instead of crits for reducing the cooldown :\
On February 19 2013 03:30 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:25 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 19 2013 03:15 Dusty wrote:
so uh
I just played with QualityPlayer aka BEST AP TRYND WORLD aka ALL I DO IS WIN..
and he just trashed InvertedComposer's Singed with his AP Trynd. I'm pretty sure AP Trynd is now a thing. Reminds me of when people were abusing AP Rengar, slap a 1.0 AP ratio on a skill and people will find a way to abuse it lol. Tell that to Ashe lol On a side note, I'm kind of sad that most abilities don't have a 1.0 AP ratio. I feel like that was their original intent (mousing over your ability power stat gives a tooltip that's something like "Ability power: 30 Your abilities do 30 more damage" although few champs actually have an ability that does 30 more damage with 30 AP. If I were in charge, I'd make all AP items/runes/masteries give 20% less AP, so we can bump all of the ~0.8 ratios up to 1.0 It doesn't actually solve any problem and is silly though.
Then you'd have to take into account multi-target abilities, and spells that can hit the same target more than once. Variable AP ratios have been around since the beginning -- I think the original intent was to give non-AP building champs a benefit from Baron buff.
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On February 19 2013 03:32 Flakes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:30 thenexusp wrote:On February 19 2013 03:25 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 19 2013 03:15 Dusty wrote:
so uh
I just played with QualityPlayer aka BEST AP TRYND WORLD aka ALL I DO IS WIN..
and he just trashed InvertedComposer's Singed with his AP Trynd. I'm pretty sure AP Trynd is now a thing. Reminds me of when people were abusing AP Rengar, slap a 1.0 AP ratio on a skill and people will find a way to abuse it lol. Tell that to Ashe lol On a side note, I'm kind of sad that most abilities don't have a 1.0 AP ratio. I feel like that was their original intent (mousing over your ability power stat gives a tooltip that's something like "Ability power: 30 Your abilities do 30 more damage" although few champs actually have an ability that does 30 more damage with 30 AP. If I were in charge, I'd make all AP items/runes/masteries give 20% less AP, so we can bump all of the ~0.8 ratios up to 1.0 It doesn't actually solve any problem and is silly though. Then you'd have to take into account multi-target abilities, and spells that can hit the same target more than once
no you don't, in an alternate universe where amp tome gives +14 AP and annie's ult has a 1.0 AP ratio, everything is exactly the same as before, regardless of how many people get hit by it
Just randomly sampling pages, not that many mages actually have the same AP ratios so you can't really do anything to bring most of them to 1.0, but I still feel that if AP items gaves 30% less or something (0.7 seems like a somewhat common number) then more mages would have 1.0 ratios than currently
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I still don't understand how does ap trynd work.Can't any bruiser with some sustain just ignore him and in tf how does he actually do something?
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United States47024 Posts
I'm pretty sure the concept of AP by design was supposed to mirror the Spell Power stat from WoW, which is not 1:1 on all abilities.
AP just doesn't make sense as a 1:1 stat on all skills. Forcing it to be such limits the design space you have to work with because all abilities have fixed power scaling, so you're limited in how strong their utility can be.
On February 19 2013 03:36 thenexusp wrote:
no you don't, in an alternate universe where amp tome gives +14 AP and annie's ult has a 1.0 AP ratio, everything is exactly the same as before, regardless of how many people get hit by it
Just randomly sampling pages, not that many mages actually have the same AP ratios so you can't really do anything to bring most of them to 1.0, but I still feel that if AP items gaves 30% less or something (0.7 seems like a somewhat common number) then more mages would have 1.0 ratios than currently
But utility and base damage are fixed. So if scaling is constant, you cannot make tradeoffs like "weaker scaling for stronger base damage" or "stronger scaling for less utility". Your scaling component is fixed, so your base damage/utility are hemmed in by your limits on power level.
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On February 19 2013 03:38 TheYango wrote:
I'm pretty sure the concept of AP by design was supposed to mirror the Spell Power stat from WoW, which is not 1:1 on all abilities.
AP just doesn't make sense as a 1:1 stat on all skills. Forcing it to be such limits the design space you have to work with because all abilities have fixed power scaling, so you're limited in how strong their utility can be.
I wasn't talking about giving all skills 1:1 scaling, but it's just that so few skills seem to have it at all (and when they slap a 1:1 scaling on a non-mage like rengar, it still ends up broken)
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United States47024 Posts
On February 19 2013 03:39 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:38 TheYango wrote:
I'm pretty sure the concept of AP by design was supposed to mirror the Spell Power stat from WoW, which is not 1:1 on all abilities.
AP just doesn't make sense as a 1:1 stat on all skills. Forcing it to be such limits the design space you have to work with because all abilities have fixed power scaling, so you're limited in how strong their utility can be. I wasn't talking about giving all skills 1:1 scaling, but it's just that so few skills seem to have it at all (and when they slap a 1:1 scaling on a non-mage like rengar, it still ends up broken)
So what you're essentially proposing is a cosmetic change where you re-normalize the value of AP vs. ratios.
I'm not sure what is to be gained/lost from that. Seems like a lot of effort to make no actual gameplay changes.
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Would Tibbers then proceed to deal 1:1 AoE DPS to everyone around him?
I like normalization and all, but then you start to get things like "2 mana per 5 seconds" or "1 gold per 10 seconds"
really comes down to designer preference
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On February 19 2013 03:40 Flakes wrote:
Would Tibbers then proceed to deal 1:1 AoE DPS to everyone around him?
No, because the ratio is .2 currently, and if you scale it up it'd become something like .25 instead
expressing regen in terms of hp per 5 seconds is also dumb IMO
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United States47024 Posts
I'm pretty sure stating regen as "per 5" values was also another concession to make the game look more like WoW. Because that's the only other context I know of where regen is represented in that format.
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One thing I appreciate though is that Riot doesn't hide numbers by default like Diablo III
Incinerate: Deals a moderate damage to enemies in a cone
Level up: Increases the damage dealt.
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On February 19 2013 03:37 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand how does ap trynd work.Can't any bruiser with some sustain just ignore him and in tf how does he actually do something?
AP tryn has enormous sustain at lvl 1. Heal has 150% AP ratio, base lvl 1 + AP quints equals ~70 hp heal every 12 seconds, without any fury consumed. With lots of AP his Q heals for huge amounts and his E damages for huge amounts. With CDR his E also gets a lot better.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 19 2013 03:48 thenexusp wrote:
One thing I appreciate though is that Riot doesn't hide numbers by default like Diablo III
Incinerate: Deals a moderate damage to enemies in a cone
Level up: Increases the damage dealt.
I mean, in the context of a fundamentally competitive game, knowing the numbers matters more.
You could honestly play Diablo 3 for a long time without knowing the numbers for anything, especially without stat assignment or anything requiring you to optimize.
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On February 19 2013 03:32 Flakes wrote:
AP Trynd can win a lot of lanes normal Trynd can't, but using his spin offensively is real terror -- I guess you'd have to rely on CDR instead of crits for reducing the cooldown :\
It's not hard at all. You just walk up to your opponent and start hitting them, and if you position well they'll take spin damage when you spin away.
On February 19 2013 03:37 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand how does ap trynd work.Can't any bruiser with some sustain just ignore him and in tf how does he actually do something?
Tryndamere starting with lots of AP was capable of beating Yorick during the height of top lane toxicity. Since then everyone except Tryndamere has received sustain nerfs. It's extremely difficult to match the sustain of a Tryndamere who uses AP Runes + Amp Tome because he's healing for 107 Health every 11.5 seconds with just one rank in Q. It's roughly equivalent to having a potion running at all times during laning.
For team fighting pure AP Tryndamere just spins in and out. A lucky crit is practically a reset on his spin, which means another 1.0 AP ratio spin. It basically works the same way as Rengar, only it's more consistent and Tryndamere has a magic survival ultimate rather than a stealth.
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On February 19 2013 03:58 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:32 Flakes wrote:
AP Trynd can win a lot of lanes normal Trynd can't, but using his spin offensively is real terror -- I guess you'd have to rely on CDR instead of crits for reducing the cooldown :\ It's not hard at all. You just walk up to your opponent and start hitting them, and if you position well they'll take spin damage when you spin away. Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:37 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand how does ap trynd work.Can't any bruiser with some sustain just ignore him and in tf how does he actually do something? Tryndamere starting with lots of AP was capable of beating Yorick during the height of top lane toxicity. Since then everyone except Tryndamere has received sustain nerfs. It's extremely difficult to match the sustain of a Tryndamere who uses AP Runes + Amp Tome because he's healing for 107 Health every 11.5 seconds with just one rank in Q. It's roughly equivalent to having a potion running at all times during laning. For team fighting pure AP Tryndamere just spins in and out. A lucky crit is practically a reset on his spin, which means another 1.0 AP ratio spin. It basically works the same way as Rengar, only it's more consistent and Tryndamere has a magic survival ultimate rather than a stealth.
that's misleading though
you can't just compare the two and only list trynd's pluses to rengar's negatives
i could just as easily say rengar is the same as trynd, only it's a double nuke at once + cc + pushing power rather than an ultimate that's extremely susceptible to the most common summoner spell in the game, ignite
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On February 19 2013 03:09 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 02:30 TheYango wrote:
Wait, so we've come to the point where we're discussing how to nerf a champ not even when they are FotM, but the week before they're expected to become FotM? The champion after Quinn is too strong. He needs a longer cooldown on his ultimate, and less range on his Q. More seriously, I agree. Even though we all know Thresh is too strong, it's presumptuous of us to assume we know how to fix him when he hasn't even been out that long. I also haven't seen that many Threshs in ranked yet, though I imagine that will change when players see him constantly picked or banned in LCS.
I don't even know how Thresh does in most lanes because I haven't played him too much (focusing on learning Lulu, and not confident enough to pick him in ranked when a teammate will rely on my performance) and most players I've seen using him barely harass with autos and play him like Blitz, aka "be super passive all the time and randomly throw W to collect souls and Q to try to all-in somebody".
Resulting in them getting trashed by every support who actually tries to trade and wrestle bush control from them. Sona, Lulu, Zyra and other poke support destroy Thresh despite their inherent squishiness because he never actually tries to abuse his Q passive to out harass them then all-in.
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EPT
