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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 17 2013 10:22 Parnage wrote: It's an old people term. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/borked Despite being a purveyor of old people terms, when I use it the meaning falls much more in line with the slang. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=borked | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On February 17 2013 11:02 Seuss wrote: Despite being a purveyor of old people terms, when I use it the meaning falls much more in line with the slang. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=borked Ya done borked up. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
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nojitosunrise
United States6188 Posts
On February 17 2013 10:22 Parnage wrote: It's an old people term. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/borked omg...am i so old that people don't say borked anymore? | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
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Kontossis
Canada256 Posts
On February 17 2013 10:50 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Again, I'm going to say that I don't care what BT/Zeal/cloak is because I'm not comparing Vayne's dps in a 2 minute window. I'd either have shiv there instead of cloak/zeal or I'd wait 20 creeps, finish PD, and have a comparison of BotRK + Hurricane + longsword vs BT/PD. Also, are you accounting for crits and the DECREASE in dps that BotRK takes as target HP goes lower? Because as far as i can tell a 30% ad ratio on BotRK is exactly the same as having 30% crit chance except, like you said, it's not distributed evenly. There's always going to be a random factor in there. I'm pretty sure you have to take the tumble damage modifier based on AD as well. Two tumbles in a fight on a single target makes BT stronger. In the shiv situation you'd have to add the shiv proc and I'm pretty damn sure shiv proc would out-dps the BotRK dps Also you're not accounting for MS which is one of Vayne's biggest stats I mean, in a vacuum and given very specific conditions (the point where you have enough for exactly BotRK/Hurricane/Zerks but not BT/fully upgraded PD/Zerks you might be right, but if you're getting hurricane over PD on vayne you're doing it wrong. Why am I doing it wrong? You can't say something is bad without testing and calculating the actual math. Have you yourself tested this on PBE like I have? Runaan's and BotRK at that point of the game does very similar damage to traditional builds at that point of the game and BotRK + Runaan has far more utility. You can calculate it for yourself if you like. Late game, depending on the health of the target, it does from 100% to 70% damage of a regular build (4000 health to 300ish health) without counting that you have the BC to further shred armor. When I'm talking about 30%, I'm talking about the life on hit. If you have 300 AD, you will gain 90 health each basic attack no matter who you attack. With Runaan's, its 270 with 3 targets. | ||
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
We've just stomped Insight 2-0 and qualified paiN Gaming for CeBIT! Coach necrosed will be there :DDDD | ||
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Sermokala
United States13937 Posts
On February 17 2013 11:38 necrosed wrote: I'm so fucking happy right now. Since Absolute Legends is nill, there is one IEM spot left for the Americas in CeBIT. ESL organized a BO3 between the two american teams with most points in IEM Season VII - paiN Gaming and Insight e-Sports. We've just stomped Insight 2-0 and qualified paiN Gaming for CeBIT! Coach necrosed will be there :DDDD congrads I'll look forward to that. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On February 17 2013 11:31 Kontossis wrote: Why am I doing it wrong? You can't say something is bad without testing and calculating the actual math. Have you yourself tested this on PBE like I have? Runaan's and BotRK at that point of the game does very similar damage to traditional builds at that point of the game and BotRK + Runaan has far more utility. You can calculate it for yourself if you like. Late game, depending on the health of the target, it does from 100% to 70% damage of a regular build (4000 health to 300ish health) without counting that you have the BC to further shred armor. When I'm talking about 30%, I'm talking about the life on hit. If you have 300 AD, you will gain 90 health each basic attack no matter who you attack. With Runaan's, its 270 with 3 targets. I think our levels of analysis are completely different. You never, ever want BC on Vayne. Like, I've been maining ADC for a while now and I play with a bunch of plats/diamonds so like (AND I CAN BE COMPLETELY WRONG ON THIS) I have a strong sense of what is important on certain ADCs. Vayne is one ADC I think I have a very strong handle on and even if the itemization provides stronger numbers on paper it's all still very arbitrary based on how you value things that you can't put a dps or gold value on like MS. Situationally, your build might be better, but I think the situations in which your build will do those things better are very rare and it decreases your overall input to the game compared to PD even if it lets you stand in place and dps in a short window better. What it boils down to is that I think you're sacrificing Vayne's biggest strength for a marginal, debatable dps-on-paper possibility and I just think that's wrong. | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
@.@ Means it has no synergy with kits/(possibly crit) @ all. Shits rediculous. | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
Dusty: It's not exactly clear because if you read Xyph's explanation it's supposed to be competing with PD and static shiv on ADCs.. Emphasis on supposed. | ||
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Zooper31
United States5710 Posts
On February 17 2013 11:55 phyvo wrote: If the skill doesn't add to your total AD of course it doesn't interact... none of those skills add to your AD. Unless you're saying you don't get *any* life at all if you use a spinning axe which would be a bug. Dusty: It's not exactly clear because if you read Xyph's explanation it's supposed to be competing with PD and static shiv on ADCs.. Emphasis on supposed. Except it provides no MS, AS, or crit. How in the world was it supposed to be competing with PD and Shiv? 2 completely different item goals. That doesn't make much sense. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 17 2013 10:30 Kontossis wrote: I don't doubt that standard IE will damage BotRK build, but lets see how much. Assuming 330 AD, 55% crit, 1.46 attack speed 385 AD with Ult. Standard Build 330*0.55*2.5 + 330*0.45 = 602.25 damage per hit. 879.285 DPS. With ult, 385*0.55*2.5 + 385*0.45 = 702.625 damage per hit. 1025.8325 DPS Assuming 300 AD, 1.86 attack speed. 355 AD with Ult. BotRK build 300 damage per hit without BotRK passive. Against 4000, 3000, 2000, 1000 and 500 hp targets.. 300 + 4000*0.05 = 930 DPS 4000 health 837 DPS 3000 health 744 DPS 2000 health 651 DPS 1000 health 604.5 DPS 500 health With ult: 1032 DPS, 939.3 DPS, 846.3, 753.3, 706.8 DPS for 4000, 3000, 2000, 1000, 500 health targets respectively. Silver bolts will add around 50 true damage DPS to the side of BotRK build due to increased attack speed for targets above 4000 health, 30 true damage DPS at 2000 health and 20 true damage DPS at 1000 health. BotRK+ Runaan build goes from around the same DPS as IE build, at 4000 health targets to around 70ish% DPS when you're about to kill someone. Which is pretty good IMO just accounting for single target. BotRK is still at 4% current health. That 5% has to be approved by PBE and still isn't. Secondly you used max health calculations and I have no idea what your final builds are. And you didn't show your work. How does Vayne have 330 AD? Did you assume Base + runes + IE + max stack BT + LW? | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
Even with the AS on it it still feels awful on the ranged carries I've tried it on (Vayne, Graves, Quinn, Ezreal, MF) | ||
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samthesaluki
914 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 17 2013 11:31 Kontossis wrote: Why am I doing it wrong? You can't say something is bad without testing and calculating the actual math. Have you yourself tested this on PBE like I have? Runaan's and BotRK at that point of the game does very similar damage to traditional builds at that point of the game and BotRK + Runaan has far more utility. You can calculate it for yourself if you like. Late game, depending on the health of the target, it does from 100% to 70% damage of a regular build (4000 health to 300ish health) without counting that you have the BC to further shred armor. When I'm talking about 30%, I'm talking about the life on hit. If you have 300 AD, you will gain 90 health each basic attack no matter who you attack. With Runaan's, its 270 with 3 targets. Only having ~80% damage against most targets is a very significant DPS decrease. It's not one that you can just pass off as acceptable. I feel you're treating this as ok because you're overstating how often you get the secondary bolt procs which is actually not all that likely without egregious positioning errors made on one side or the other. As Teut said, it should almost never be the case that you're within AA range of 3 separate champions at all unless you're being dived, let alone in such a way that they'd actually be close enough to one another that you can splash them all with Hurricane. | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
On February 17 2013 12:10 xes wrote: PBE BotRK is an extremely strong single damage item for champions with some sort of built in AS scaling like Jax or Udyr (probably WW but didn't test on him). Even with the AS on it it still feels awful on the ranged carries I've tried it on (Vayne, Graves, Quinn, Ezreal, MF) Ill try it tommorow on PBE with replaced BT midgame (IE/PD/BoRK). Should be interesting, but Im kinda sad because of that lack of interaction Q.Q Except it provides no MS, AS, or crit. How in the world was it supposed to be competing with PD and Shiv? 2 completely different item goals. That doesn't make much sense. It doesnt. In my opinion it competes with BT, by exchanging lifesteal and 55 ad for all the utility it gives. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 17 2013 07:38 Numy wrote: I don't really think that's true anymore. There are multiple damage sources now and there is a need for utility/survivablity on the ADC If both teams can peel the team with the carry that does the most relative DPS wins the fight. The carries portion of that is to maximize their single target DPS. Think of what builds would look like if peel did not exist, and teams met each other in a line and attacked one target until it was dead. If this were the case then the optimal order to target your opponents would be the one which minimized incoming damage over the fight duration. And this optimal target ordering would generate a response for each member of the enemy team to build in such a way as to maximize the product of the dps*EHP. This is because anyone who did not do this and had too much tank would be targeted last and while those with more dps would be targeted first. But league does not work that way, rather league works where sometimes a team can dictate to the other team who they shoot first. In this case its makes sense for one person to have no tank and all DPS, since the rest of their team will ensure they're attacked last. The next person in the attack order will have less DPS but still mainly DPS and some tank. The first three people in the attack order will have mainly tank. If you decide to not max DPS on your carry then it has to be the case that you're getting dived... But this comes with a caveat, because if you build tanky on your carry the enemy team no longer needs to dive you. This is because AD carries tend to have the lower base damages in the game which means they scale poorly with tank. I.E. if you build tank as a bruiser you have base ability damage to fall back on. If you build tank as an ADC you do not have base ability damage to fall back on. (in addition as fights increase in time the range advantage is reduced since melee enemies can close) ----------- That being said, i do think there will be a place for 40% AS BotRK in the meta. The answer though is that it will be used on carries that don't tend to build crit, or only get a small amount. E.G. lets look at a particular itemization path for Graves, the quintessential BT first ADC. Graves can build BT,PD,LW and be effective. But he gets a lot more out of AD than crit since he has high ability scaling. If he builds BT,BotRK,LW instead he only loses 10% attack speed and 30% crit. 30% crit is about 72 AD equivalent on auto attacks(240 AD x .3) and in return he gets 30 AD and the active. If we ignore the extra 10% AS that PD has as inconsequential or offsetting with the 30 AD's ability damage then the passive damage needs to be worth the difference between the average crit damage and the extra AD that BotRK provides. It is worth this amount (42 AD) so long as the enemy has 840 HP or more. Which is to say that BotRK doesn't have to replace BT, or have a build specifically tuned to it with hurricane. It can replace phantom dancer/shiv on builds that start with BT since the three item timing won't have an IE in it to magnify the value of the crit on PD/Shiv. Fake Edit: If you were to 4th Item Hurricane you would have about 270 AD and gain 240 HP per attack(so long as there were three enemies there to hit) before BT regen. At 6 item timing BT/RotRK/LW/Hurricane/GA would make you a pretty tough nut to crack. Fake Edit 2: BotRK with 30 AD/40 AS on a traditional IE,PD,LW build would need a target to have more than 2400 HP in order to do more damage per hit than a BT. Total auto attack DPS would likely be higher in all cases due to the additional attack speed. Running the numbers with Ashe(post AS buff) we find: BotRK: Initial Crit: 624 DPS raw: 824.879328 not including passive BT: Fully Stacked Initial Crit: 798 DPS Raw: 907.3 BT: Zero stacks Initial Crit: 722 DPS Raw: 821 In order to have more DPS the BotRK must make up about 80 DPS, since Ashe with BotRK would have 1.8 attacks/second this means she would need do to about 50 more damage per attack which means that the enemy would have to have about 900 HP. If we don't ignore the active bonus damage on someone attacking ashe, then BotRK likely has strictly higher damage if we do then it will take a bit of attacking when enemies have higher HP than 900 in order to make up the difference. On someone like Trist? BotRK should pretty handily dominate BT at any purchase point Edit: Basically, doing some cursory calculations i feel like the new 30 AD, 40 AS BotRK competes favorably with PD when playing BT first itemization and favorably with BT on IE first itemization. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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