On February 17 2013 07:57 Kontossis wrote: The main thing that makes this build really strong IMO is Runaan's + BOTRK. Being able to life on hit no matter how tanky someone is, 100% consistency due to no crit, and much higher attack speed allows you to gain life really quickly. In a regular game, when someone has boots 2, BOTRK and Hurricane, they have 1.9 attack speed and 30-90 life on hit. With similar gold values, someone has boots, zeal, cloak of agility and BT with 1.3 attack speed. Vayne would simply demolish other people with the first build.
I also think people are overestimating the power of crits. Unless you are Tristana/Caitlyn, you're not getting enough critical multiplier/chance as the IE will be a 5th to 6th item.
BotRK is % hp damage, sure, which is 100% consistent downward scaling AD as you hit them. Wtf is hurricane in there? Hurricane is a trash item because it only gives you one stat that you already get free scaling on and the SUPER KEWL LAZARS part of it requires ezreal to constantly be in auto range of 3 people to even have an effect. You're experiencing cognitive dissonance and projecting your own overestimation of your build's damage onto us.
You're arguing that it does more damage than PD/IE/BT/LW and that's just straight up not true. We're not talking about exact cost effectiveness of a specific amount of gold--your example compares BT/Zeal/Cloak with Hurricane/BotRK which might outdamage BT/Zeal/Cloak for about 1000 gold if your opponent has 3.5k life when you have 2 items, but then you get PD and it's just clearly superior...
On February 16 2013 05:34 Requizen wrote: TIL that there was a cinematic trailer for Dominon. I don't know if it ever aired, but holy shit if it's not badass.
For those who have not seen it:
It sucks.
User was warned for this post
inb4 neo feeds on irelia every game for the rest of his life.
Also i'm not sure if you realize this but if your opponents have low base hp values your damage output drops so that build makes it take more hits to kill squishies
On February 17 2013 07:57 Kontossis wrote: The main thing that makes this build really strong IMO is Runaan's + BOTRK. Being able to life on hit no matter how tanky someone is, 100% consistency due to no crit, and much higher attack speed allows you to gain life really quickly. In a regular game, when someone has boots 2, BOTRK and Hurricane, they have 1.9 attack speed and 30-90 life on hit. With similar gold values, someone has boots, zeal, cloak of agility and BT with 1.3 attack speed. Vayne would simply demolish other people with the first build.
I also think people are overestimating the power of crits. Unless you are Tristana/Caitlyn, you're not getting enough critical multiplier/chance as the IE will be a 5th to 6th item.
25% critstrike~ this stat alone gives an increase of 50% raw damage output. So, while you're saying 1.3 AS of the zeal+boots+cloak+bt, is low. You don't calculate the 50% raw damage output of critchance; which if you want to convert to AS in terms of damage output without crit is essentially around ~2.0AS.
Toss in another 1k gold into the build, and BT/PD/boots start scaling even harder. Also you're undervaluing 5%ms.
BotRK is going to be good next patch if these changes go through, that much is true.
But arguing that the item is strong at the 6 item timing is just silly. The item comes together at 2 items with an AD+arpen source. If you're playing a BotRK based build, you're aiming it toward having BotRK+Cleaver or BotRK+LW. That's your power peak because that's where you put all the complementary stats together before you introduce the inefficiency of combining BotRK with crit and whatnot.
IE-based builds are aimed at endgame because IE introduces a multiplicative DPS stat (% crit damage) which is not available on other items, meaning that it's effectiveness increases the more relevant DPS items you have. Arguing that whatever build you come up with is supposed to be better than IE-based builds at 6 items is a pointless endeavor because that's the power peak the item is precisely designed for.
What says you have to have a glasscanon adc that only pumps single target damage? There have been successful non-adc team compositions on pro level, as well as compositions with urgot as adc, and he's hardly building standard adc.
FM/runaans/BotRK builds could certainly be viable, and should be tested, even though it doesn't fill the same role as a crit based build.
The point of Runaans is to get loads more "lifesteal" from BotRK proc in teamfights and to slow their whole team with FM. Against a team full of bruisers, this kind of build could be great for a kitecomp. You just run backwards as a team, slow them, get mad amounts of lifesteal from BotRK and outlast them.
I never even liked Runaans (except for troll teemo builds and perhaps varus) or BotRK. Stop being so closeminded, try shit out, it's a game.
On February 17 2013 08:34 arb wrote: Should really just make BOTRK/Liandrys max health or something. an item that does less damage as you do damage seems kinda eh..
Then that would broken as tits... They're fine the way they are now. I feel liandry's was mostly made just so haunting guise wasn't a dead end; it shouldn't even be made into a cost efficient item imo. (like maw is to hexdrinker).
On February 17 2013 08:35 zodde wrote: What says you have to have a glasscanon adc that only pumps single target damage? There have been successful non-adc team compositions on pro level, as well as compositions with urgot as adc, and he's hardly building standard adc.
FM/runaans/BotRK builds could certainly be viable, and should be tested, even though it doesn't fill the same role as a crit based build.
The point of Runaans is to get loads more "lifesteal" from BotRK proc in teamfights and to slow their whole team with FM. Against a team full of bruisers, this kind of build could be great for a kitecomp. You just run backwards as a team, slow them, get mad amounts of lifesteal from BotRK and outlast them.
I never even liked Runaans (except for troll teemo builds and perhaps varus) or BotRK. Stop being so closeminded, try shit out, it's a game.
If you want to run a kite comp, play ashe with standard build. If you want to run a kite comp with majority of your team being assassins or dive comp, play ez with IBG. If you want to run a kite comp that does diddly fucking squat, do your build.
Also, there's a reason why urgot's lategame is so suspect; it's because he doesn't/can't build like typical ADC. The only reason he works is because he can essentially shutdown enemy ADC with his ulti; survive the swap, and all of a sudden you have an bruiser adc vs no adc.
lol, calling someone in GD "closeminded", how long have you even been here?
On February 17 2013 08:35 zodde wrote: What says you have to have a glasscanon adc that only pumps single target damage? There have been successful non-adc team compositions on pro level, as well as compositions with urgot as adc, and he's hardly building standard adc.
FM/runaans/BotRK builds could certainly be viable, and should be tested, even though it doesn't fill the same role as a crit based build.
The point of Runaans is to get loads more "lifesteal" from BotRK proc in teamfights and to slow their whole team with FM. Against a team full of bruisers, this kind of build could be great for a kitecomp. You just run backwards as a team, slow them, get mad amounts of lifesteal from BotRK and outlast them.
I never even liked Runaans (except for troll teemo builds and perhaps varus) or BotRK. Stop being so closeminded, try shit out, it's a game.
What if I've tried out Runaan's Hurricane and BotRK and found out they sucked?
Would you still consider me closeminded?
[edit] We were literally testing BotRK on ADC in TROLLS last night with Monte. [/edit]
On February 17 2013 08:35 zodde wrote: What says you have to have a glasscanon adc that only pumps single target damage? There have been successful non-adc team compositions on pro level, as well as compositions with urgot as adc, and he's hardly building standard adc.
FM/runaans/BotRK builds could certainly be viable, and should be tested, even though it doesn't fill the same role as a crit based build.
The point of Runaans is to get loads more "lifesteal" from BotRK proc in teamfights and to slow their whole team with FM. Against a team full of bruisers, this kind of build could be great for a kitecomp. You just run backwards as a team, slow them, get mad amounts of lifesteal from BotRK and outlast them.
I never even liked Runaans (except for troll teemo builds and perhaps varus) or BotRK. Stop being so closeminded, try shit out, it's a game.
What if I've tried out Runaan's Hurricane and BotRK and found out they sucked?
Would you still consider me closeminded?
[edit] We were literally testing BotRK on ADC in TROLLS last night with Monte. [/edit]
On February 17 2013 07:57 Kontossis wrote: The main thing that makes this build really strong IMO is Runaan's + BOTRK. Being able to life on hit no matter how tanky someone is, 100% consistency due to no crit, and much higher attack speed allows you to gain life really quickly. In a regular game, when someone has boots 2, BOTRK and Hurricane, they have 1.9 attack speed and 30-90 life on hit. With similar gold values, someone has boots, zeal, cloak of agility and BT with 1.3 attack speed. Vayne would simply demolish other people with the first build.
I also think people are overestimating the power of crits. Unless you are Tristana/Caitlyn, you're not getting enough critical multiplier/chance as the IE will be a 5th to 6th item.
I think I get IE first item more often than BT on adc's.
In any case, I think you're vastly overestimating how useful standing-dps is. The simple fact of the matter is that adc's mostly do scoot-'n-shoot, meaning you just have to hit just enough attack speed to have a good animation for kiting. Past that, you want to be itemizing as hard as you can for per-hit damage. Also, I don't get your 'consistency' argument. Why exactly does that make a difference? (Please explain, because i'm genuinely confused, sorry if you've explained in previous pages, but I'm not going to bother to look)
On February 17 2013 07:57 Kontossis wrote: The main thing that makes this build really strong IMO is Runaan's + BOTRK. Being able to life on hit no matter how tanky someone is, 100% consistency due to no crit, and much higher attack speed allows you to gain life really quickly. In a regular game, when someone has boots 2, BOTRK and Hurricane, they have 1.9 attack speed and 30-90 life on hit. With similar gold values, someone has boots, zeal, cloak of agility and BT with 1.3 attack speed. Vayne would simply demolish other people with the first build.
I also think people are overestimating the power of crits. Unless you are Tristana/Caitlyn, you're not getting enough critical multiplier/chance as the IE will be a 5th to 6th item.
BotRK is % hp damage, sure, which is 100% consistent downward scaling AD as you hit them. Wtf is hurricane in there? Hurricane is a trash item because it only gives you one stat that you already get free scaling on and the SUPER KEWL LAZARS part of it requires ezreal to constantly be in auto range of 3 people to even have an effect. You're experiencing cognitive dissonance and projecting your own overestimation of your build's damage onto us.
You're arguing that it does more damage than PD/IE/BT/LW and that's just straight up not true. We're not talking about exact cost effectiveness of a specific amount of gold--your example compares BT/Zeal/Cloak with Hurricane/BotRK which might outdamage BT/Zeal/Cloak for about 1000 gold if your opponent has 3.5k life when you have 2 items, but then you get PD and it's just clearly superior...
Err, you must be misunderstanding something but late game, I clearly said in a few points that this build does not do more single target damage late game. I said that it does around 65% damage of a usual ADC build at the lowest amounts (HP is around 200ish) in one of my previously posts. The post you are referencing is talking about the early game dueling capacity with that specific build WITH VAYNE whose W will be even more powerful due to the high attack speed and superior life gain.
seriously ive tried this build on varus but i didnt buy mallet before cleaver. so it rather was botrk cleaver runaans. these three items synergize perfectly peak hard and the build is cheap. its not bad. the damage you do is surprisingly high if you hit more than one target at once. the build sucks against divers&assassins but works super well with and against aoe comps. yes ofc it falls off against ie pd lw but you will peak faster. it is not an adc centric build though. you should not do this if your team needs you as a cleanup or as the guy who kills X bruiser. for example if I had yorick, naut, anivia and janna then i wouldn't do it. But if I had sona, amumu, diana and darius then this build could be optimal.
On February 17 2013 07:57 Kontossis wrote: The main thing that makes this build really strong IMO is Runaan's + BOTRK. Being able to life on hit no matter how tanky someone is, 100% consistency due to no crit, and much higher attack speed allows you to gain life really quickly. In a regular game, when someone has boots 2, BOTRK and Hurricane, they have 1.9 attack speed and 30-90 life on hit. With similar gold values, someone has boots, zeal, cloak of agility and BT with 1.3 attack speed. Vayne would simply demolish other people with the first build.
I also think people are overestimating the power of crits. Unless you are Tristana/Caitlyn, you're not getting enough critical multiplier/chance as the IE will be a 5th to 6th item.
I think I get IE first item more often than BT on adc's.
In any case, I think you're vastly overestimating how useful standing-dps is. The simple fact of the matter is that adc's mostly do scoot-'n-shoot, meaning you just have to hit just enough attack speed to have a good animation for kiting. Past that, you want to be itemizing as hard as you can for per-hit damage. Also, I don't get your 'consistency' argument. Why exactly does that make a difference? (Please explain, because i'm genuinely confused, sorry if you've explained in previous pages, but I'm not going to bother to look)
Consistency in my thinking is how often one event compared to others happens. For example, if you have 0% crit chance, you do 100% consistent damage as you can only do damage with your basic hit. If you have 100% crit chance, you do 100% consistent damage because you can only crit. With 30% critical chance, the chance you get with a PD, you can either crit or you do not. Due to probability, you can with 30% crit chance hit a person 10 times and not get a single crit, or you can crit them 5 times in a row and kill them. I can't say how useful max damage per hit is because frankly, I'm not very good at this game, but I would really suggest people that have PBE try out this build before counting it out.
On February 17 2013 08:59 clickrush wrote: seriously ive tried this build on varus but i didnt buy mallet before cleaver. so it rather was botrk cleaver runaans. these three items synergize perfectly peak hard and the build is cheap. its not bad. the damage you do is surprisingly high if you hit more than one target at once. the build sucks against divers&assassins but works super well with and against aoe comps. yes ofc it falls off against ie pd lw but you will peak faster. it is not an adc centric build though. you should not do this if your team needs you as a cleanup or as the guy who kills X bruiser. for example if I had yorick, naut, anivia and janna then i wouldn't do it. But if I had sona, amumu, diana and darius then this build could be optimal.
Mallet's honestly the worst part of the build, lol. Really should just be a primary defensive item like Randuin, Warmog's, or Locket in that slot.
The main issue with the consideration of AoE damage is that there are AD carries specifically geared toward AoE damage that will itemize such, and they won't use BotRK to do it. MF being the most popular recent example. Though in solo queue games you won't have optimal picks due to people playing whatever they want, and BotRK is potentially a good adaptation to certain timings/game states.
On February 17 2013 08:59 clickrush wrote: seriously ive tried this build on varus but i didnt buy mallet before cleaver. so it rather was botrk cleaver runaans. these three items synergize perfectly peak hard and the build is cheap. its not bad. the damage you do is surprisingly high if you hit more than one target at once. the build sucks against divers&assassins but works super well with and against aoe comps. yes ofc it falls off against ie pd lw but you will peak faster. it is not an adc centric build though. you should not do this if your team needs you as a cleanup or as the guy who kills X bruiser. for example if I had yorick, naut, anivia and janna then i wouldn't do it. But if I had sona, amumu, diana and darius then this build could be optimal.
Mallet's honestly the worst part of the build, lol. Really should just be a primary defensive item like Randuin, Warmog's, or Locket in that slot.
You don't need mallet I agree but if there's another person on the team that can utilize red buff, you can always give it to them if you had mallet. Otherwise, Randuin is the best item for heavy AD teams and Warmog is still a pretty solid item for regular teams due to being 470 gold cheaper and 300 more health.
On February 17 2013 07:57 Kontossis wrote: The main thing that makes this build really strong IMO is Runaan's + BOTRK. Being able to life on hit no matter how tanky someone is, 100% consistency due to no crit, and much higher attack speed allows you to gain life really quickly. In a regular game, when someone has boots 2, BOTRK and Hurricane, they have 1.9 attack speed and 30-90 life on hit. With similar gold values, someone has boots, zeal, cloak of agility and BT with 1.3 attack speed. Vayne would simply demolish other people with the first build.
I also think people are overestimating the power of crits. Unless you are Tristana/Caitlyn, you're not getting enough critical multiplier/chance as the IE will be a 5th to 6th item.
BotRK is % hp damage, sure, which is 100% consistent downward scaling AD as you hit them. Wtf is hurricane in there? Hurricane is a trash item because it only gives you one stat that you already get free scaling on and the SUPER KEWL LAZARS part of it requires ezreal to constantly be in auto range of 3 people to even have an effect. You're experiencing cognitive dissonance and projecting your own overestimation of your build's damage onto us.
You're arguing that it does more damage than PD/IE/BT/LW and that's just straight up not true. We're not talking about exact cost effectiveness of a specific amount of gold--your example compares BT/Zeal/Cloak with Hurricane/BotRK which might outdamage BT/Zeal/Cloak for about 1000 gold if your opponent has 3.5k life when you have 2 items, but then you get PD and it's just clearly superior...
Err, you must be misunderstanding something but late game, I clearly said in a few points that this build does not do more single target damage late game. I said that it does around 65% damage of a usual ADC build at the lowest amounts (HP is around 200ish) in one of my previously posts. The post you are referencing is talking about the early game dueling capacity with that specific build WITH VAYNE whose W will be even more powerful due to the high attack speed and superior life gain.
Okay, if we're talking about Vayne, then why are you including "superior life gain" as a stat at all? Vayne's w proc doesn't trigger lifesteal. I'm pretty sure you've just completely lost your argument and unwilling to admit it. I'm also willing to bet that you'd kill someone faster with a BT/zeal/cloak than with BotRK/Hurricane, even if I would upgrade Zeal to Shiv instead of buying cloak.
Seriously your last sentence is just dumb, how does life gain affect w at all?
Just start thinking of criticals as a % DPS increase. Take attack speed, multiply it by DPS, and then multiply it by 1+crit chance, or 1+(1.5*crit) chance if you have an IE.
Runans is not great simply because it's really bad at being able to shoot the guy who is attacking you dead in a matter of seconds. It's an item that looks good on paper (2 TIMES DAMAGE!!) but is not as effective practically.
EPT
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