On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
Hm, that sounds more like an EZ build with 0 AS in there. But i think that that upper build might actually work, though i don't see why you would put a BC in there. I guess it could work, though it is more of an on-hit build which have historically been less damage then real AD builds. But i can see it working on someone that really likes runaans, like for example Varus. I think that would really be worth some testing. You are tankier then usual ADs, have more utility, but obviously do less damage. The question is if that tradeoff might not be worth it. You could finish that build with either an IE/BT or maybe even another defensive item depending on if you want more damage or more tankiness. It is kind of weird, but an interesting concept, especially if you fight against multiple guys that want to dive you.
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
Then play Ez? with superior build? And i meant the bc/botrk/lw/fm/hurricaine/took up more slots*, less slot efficient.
The whole idea of this guy's build is the ability to "aoe slow", while dealing damage. You could just play IBG Ez if kiting is such a big deal for you (and you don't have a team to kite for you).
A crit-less BotRK build doesn't provide superior lategame damage to a build that involves crit itemization unless enemies have unrealistically high amounts of HP.
An item build is strongest when your items provide all the complementary stats that are needed to function together. In the case of BotRK, the current BotRK is strongest at the point of 2 damage items--when you have BotRK + a primary attack speed source. Relatively speaking, BotRK doesn't actually become stronger than at that timing. The BotRK proc DOES scale on its own, but it's inherent scaling does not outweigh the inherent inefficiency of a build that lacks crit or crit-able AD in the long run.
On February 17 2013 06:21 TheYango wrote: A crit-less BotRK build doesn't provide superior lategame damage to a build that involves crit itemization unless enemies have unrealistically high amounts of HP.
An item build is strongest when your items provide all the complementary stats that are needed to function together. In the case of BotRK, the current BotRK is strongest at the point of 2 damage items--when you have BotRK + a primary attack speed source. Relatively speaking, BotRK doesn't actually become stronger than at that timing. The BotRK proc DOES scale on its own, but it's inherent scaling does not outweigh the inherent inefficiency of a build that lacks crit or crit-able AD in the long run.
The damage isn't too much of a drop with no crit. A standard AD carry at the very end game with boots, BT, IE, LW, PD and 1 defensive item has usually around 330 attack damage. With 55% critical chance, the average hit is around 602 damage. The build has a total of 70% attack speed which would get a usual AD carry to 1.5 attack speed. That's around 903 damage per second.
With the BOTRK build, it has a total of 130% attack speed which gives an AD carry 1.9 attack speed. With the lowest possible health values, it will do 600 damage per second. With targets at 3500 health, it should do as much as a crit build. At worst, the single target DPS is around 65% and at best, it's as good.
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
Then play Ez? with superior build? And i meant the bc/botrk/lw/fm/hurricaine/took up more slots*, less slot efficient.
The whole idea of this guy's build is the ability to "aoe slow", while dealing damage. You could just play IBG Ez if kiting is such a big deal for you (and you don't have a team to kite for you).
This is not only about the AOE slow but the synergy with BOTRK on PBE. As the life on hit works with Runaan's, you're gaining 90-270 health each hit regardless of the tankiness of the enemy team depending on how many targets there are.
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
Are you seriously telling him that IBG is niche on Ezreal when you're advocating BotRK/Runaans/Mallet LOL
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
Are you seriously telling him that IBG is niche on Ezreal when you're advocating BotRK/Runaans/Mallet LOL
You do know that I'm basing all my theory crafting on the changes to BOTRK from PBE? IMO, the math is decently sound, and I don't see many reasons why this won't be a effective build if this change from the PBE remains consistent.
Edit: I said that it was very niche because Ezreal is the only ADC that uses it effectively.
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
Are you seriously telling him that IBG is niche on Ezreal when you're advocating BotRK/Runaans/Mallet LOL
You do know that I'm basing all my theory crafting on the changes to BOTRK from PBE? IMO, the math is decently sound, and I don't see many reasons why this won't be a effective build if this change from the PBE remains consistent.
Edit: I said that IBG was very niche because Ezreal is the only ADC that uses it effectively.
On February 17 2013 06:53 Kontossis wrote: With the BOTRK build, it has a total of 130% attack speed which gives an AD carry 1.9 attack speed. With the lowest possible health values, it will do 600 damage per second. With targets at 3500 health, it should do as much as a crit build. At worst, the single target DPS is around 65% and at best, it's as good.
That's 3500 CURRENT health.
Nobody is ever above 3500 current health in a real fight. The only champs that have 3500+ max health are tankier top laners, and burst damage at the start of the fight will generally bring them below that 3500 HP cutoff almost immediately.
So basically the BotRK build is less DPS 100% of the time.
On February 17 2013 06:53 Kontossis wrote: With the BOTRK build, it has a total of 130% attack speed which gives an AD carry 1.9 attack speed. With the lowest possible health values, it will do 600 damage per second. With targets at 3500 health, it should do as much as a crit build. At worst, the single target DPS is around 65% and at best, it's as good.
That's 3500 CURRENT health.
Nobody is ever above 3500 current health in a real fight. The only champs that have 3500+ max health are tankier top laners, and burst damage at the start of the fight will generally bring them below that 3500 HP cutoff almost immediately.
So basically the BotRK build is less DPS 100% of the time.
I'm not arguing that BOTRK build is realistically more DPS than the typical ADC build, but that it's not too significant to say that the standard build will be superior especially in terms of survivability and utility.
On February 17 2013 06:53 Kontossis wrote: With the BOTRK build, it has a total of 130% attack speed which gives an AD carry 1.9 attack speed. With the lowest possible health values, it will do 600 damage per second. With targets at 3500 health, it should do as much as a crit build. At worst, the single target DPS is around 65% and at best, it's as good.
That's 3500 CURRENT health.
Nobody is ever above 3500 current health in a real fight. The only champs that have 3500+ max health are tankier top laners, and burst damage at the start of the fight will generally bring them below that 3500 HP cutoff almost immediately.
So basically the BotRK build is less DPS 100% of the time.
I'm not arguing that BOTRK build is realistically more DPS than the typical ADC build, but that it's not too significant to say that the standard build will be superior especially in terms of survivability and utility.
ADC's main job is damage, and lots of it. Leave the tanky utility stuff to your other 4 teammates.
On February 17 2013 06:53 Kontossis wrote: With the BOTRK build, it has a total of 130% attack speed which gives an AD carry 1.9 attack speed. With the lowest possible health values, it will do 600 damage per second. With targets at 3500 health, it should do as much as a crit build. At worst, the single target DPS is around 65% and at best, it's as good.
That's 3500 CURRENT health.
Nobody is ever above 3500 current health in a real fight. The only champs that have 3500+ max health are tankier top laners, and burst damage at the start of the fight will generally bring them below that 3500 HP cutoff almost immediately.
So basically the BotRK build is less DPS 100% of the time.
I'm not arguing that BOTRK build is realistically more DPS than the typical ADC build, but that it's not too significant to say that the standard build will be superior especially in terms of survivability and utility.
ADC's main job is damage, and lots of it. Leave the tanky utility stuff to your other 4 teammates.
I don't really think that's true anymore. There are multiple damage sources now and there is a need for utility/survivablity on the ADC
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
Are you seriously telling him that IBG is niche on Ezreal when you're advocating BotRK/Runaans/Mallet LOL
You do know that I'm basing all my theory crafting on the changes to BOTRK from PBE? IMO, the math is decently sound, and I don't see many reasons why this won't be a effective build if this change from the PBE remains consistent.
Edit: I said that it was very niche because Ezreal is the only ADC that uses it effectively.
But why do you have two totally useless items in there for ezreal? (Hurricane/Mallet)
I mean doesn't IBG just do the exact same thing without the wasted gold and item slots?
I mean even if you're talking "tanky utility", all you have in that department is Mallet slow, BotRK active, and the HP from Cleaver and Mallet. Not exactly anything to write home about, lol. The 5th slot defensive item you made token reference to in the conventional build is probably going to have both more defense, and more utility, Randuin's or Locket in particular.
On February 17 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: The item is probably worse overall with Runaan's now because even though there's that cute interaction with the proc, you don't need to pair BotRK with an attack speed item anymore because of how much it gives.
I really don't understand why you think that more attack speed is bad or how Runaan's with the previous BOTRK is better overall. With the life gain on hit regardless of defense, the synergy of this item is crazy. Frozen mallet/red buff can also be paired up which makes a AD carry a huge utility ranged bruiser gaining 250+ health on hit if there are 3 targets regardless of their tankiness and applying a 30% slow to each target. Add that to the 4 second movement speed steal and AD carries if properly positioned can simply kite entire teams by themselves. This item as it is can possibly make Runaan's a viable item.
The problem is that a 30% slow on a 550 ranged AD carry can still easily be dived and blown up by a lot of champions since most gap closers outrange you. Also a BotRK/Runaans/Frozen Mallet is so little damage. It'd probably take you ten minutes to kill a bruiser with that build.
The damage is pretty good actually. I went for Greaves, BOTRK, Runaan's, FM, BC, LW. You really can't say that 30% slow to up to 3 targets doesn't help a lot especially if you have your cooldowns and you can also have a bit of armor shred with your BC. Compared to a usual AD carry build, I'd estimate that against single target, you would be dealing around 70% of the damage against the target and it would be 100% consistent due to no crit.
Why not just build IE/IBG/BT/LW? It's a better final build, AND it takes up more slots.
I listed 6 items, and IBG is very niche in that Ezreal is the only AD carry that uses it.
Are you seriously telling him that IBG is niche on Ezreal when you're advocating BotRK/Runaans/Mallet LOL
You do know that I'm basing all my theory crafting on the changes to BOTRK from PBE? IMO, the math is decently sound, and I don't see many reasons why this won't be a effective build if this change from the PBE remains consistent.
Edit: I said that it was very niche because Ezreal is the only ADC that uses it effectively.
But why do you have two totally useless items in there for ezreal? (Hurricane/Mallet)
I mean doesn't IBG just do the exact same thing without the wasted gold and item slots?
I think he wants to play other ADC. But if taht's the case, you could seriously just play Ashe, perma slow all day, still do stupid amounts of damage. The multiplicative scaling on crit is simply too good to ignore in the favor of gimicky botrk/runaans interaction.
On February 17 2013 06:53 Kontossis wrote: With the BOTRK build, it has a total of 130% attack speed which gives an AD carry 1.9 attack speed. With the lowest possible health values, it will do 600 damage per second. With targets at 3500 health, it should do as much as a crit build. At worst, the single target DPS is around 65% and at best, it's as good.
That's 3500 CURRENT health.
Nobody is ever above 3500 current health in a real fight. The only champs that have 3500+ max health are tankier top laners, and burst damage at the start of the fight will generally bring them below that 3500 HP cutoff almost immediately.
So basically the BotRK build is less DPS 100% of the time.
I'm not arguing that BOTRK build is realistically more DPS than the typical ADC build, but that it's not too significant to say that the standard build will be superior especially in terms of survivability and utility.
ADC's main job is damage, and lots of it. Leave the tanky utility stuff to your other 4 teammates.
I don't really think that's true anymore. There are multiple damage sources now and there is a need for utility/survivablity on the ADC
That's what GA/Warmogs/QSS etc etc. 5th slot defensive item is for.
The main thing that makes this build really strong IMO is Runaan's + BOTRK. Being able to life on hit no matter how tanky someone is, 100% consistency due to no crit, and much higher attack speed allows you to gain life really quickly. In a regular game, when someone has boots 2, BOTRK and Hurricane, they have 1.9 attack speed and 30-90 life on hit. With similar gold values, someone has boots, zeal, cloak of agility and BT with 1.3 attack speed. Vayne would simply demolish other people with the first build.
I also think people are overestimating the power of crits. Unless you are Tristana/Caitlyn, you're not getting enough critical multiplier/chance as the IE will be a 5th to 6th item.
On February 16 2013 05:34 Requizen wrote: TIL that there was a cinematic trailer for Dominon. I don't know if it ever aired, but holy shit if it's not badass.
On February 16 2013 05:34 Requizen wrote: TIL that there was a cinematic trailer for Dominon. I don't know if it ever aired, but holy shit if it's not badass.
EPT
