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[Patch 3.02: Fake Quinn] General Discussion - Page 48
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 17 2013 12:26 TheYango wrote: People need to stop arguing about BotRK at 6th item because that's simply not the niche its suited for. Is anyone doing that? It seems pretty respectable for 2nd item or 4th though (depending on what your first item was) | ||
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Kontossis
Canada256 Posts
On February 17 2013 12:03 obesechicken13 wrote: BotRK is still at 4% current health. That 5% has to be approved by PBE and still isn't. Secondly you used max health calculations and I have no idea what your final builds are. And you didn't show your work. How does Vayne have 330 AD? Did you assume Base + runes + IE + max stack BT + LW? All of this math is based off 5% from PBE. I'm not talking about live one bit. And I am using current health. If your current health is 4000, 3000, 2000... Vayne has 109 AD base at level 18. Masteries + Runes give 30 AD. IE BT LW gives 180 AD unstacked and 210 with a stacked BT. You're hovering between 320-350 AD already there. | ||
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Kontossis
Canada256 Posts
On February 17 2013 12:26 TheYango wrote: People need to stop arguing about BotRK at 6th item because that's simply not the niche its suited for. I'm talking about rushing BotRK as a first item though... | ||
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cabarkapa
United States1011 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
best division ever | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 17 2013 12:38 Kontossis wrote: All of this math is based off 5% from PBE. I'm not talking about live one bit. And I am using current health. If your current health is 4000, 3000, 2000... Vayne has 109 AD base at level 18. Masteries + Runes give 30 AD. IE BT LW gives 180 AD unstacked and 210 with a stacked BT. You're hovering between 320-350 AD already there. I think the confusion was coming in with what items were being used. the "normal" build was IE,BT,LW,PD right? It had 330 AD. You then replaced the BT(right?) and got 300 AD. BT has 70 more AD than BotRK, you should have had 270(40 more unstacked, so 290 if that 330 AD was unstacked AD). If you replaced the LW then you would have to recalculate with armor, and you would have had 320 AD. If you had replaced the PD you would have had 360 AD. If you replaced the IE then you would have had 290 AD. Basically at no point with a 330 AD BT,LW,IE,PD build could we have a 300 AD "replacement" build with BotRK. Edit: In addition the difference in attack speed (assuming BotRK replcaed BT,LW, or IE) would be .26 and not .4 (.658x.4 = .26). Which means that you've got a second replacement there... which means we have no clue what you're doing and can't validate those numbers in the least bit | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 17 2013 12:42 cabarkapa wrote: Isn't it 5% on live anyway? Oh it is. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 17 2013 12:32 Goumindong wrote: Is anyone doing that? It seems pretty respectable for 2nd item or 4th though (depending on what your first item was) Everyone keeps mathing 6th item scenarios, which is 1) making the math more complicated, and 2) discussing something totally irrelevant. I personally also think that joining BotRK to Runaan's is wrong, because the basic offensive stats don't actually have synergy and for pure stats, Runaan's isnt cost-effective. The interaction between the procs is cute, but as stated by myself, 5HIT, and Teut, hitting multiple people with the proc is far less realistic than anyone favoring the item is assuming. If you're in AA range of 3 people who are clumped up close together enough for you to hit Hurricane procs on them, and those 3 people are CCed in such a way that you are NOT instantly dead from being in spell range of 3 people, then you probably didn't need Hurricane splash to win that fight. The fact that people are doing BotRK+Hurricane math is making BotRK look like a worse item than it actually is. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
- suff | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
You replaced IE with BotRK and PD with Hurricane. So lets use your IE numbers and use 290 damage for your build. Same Attack speed Your build does 522 raw, no ult single target DPS. Or 522+36 true damage DPS. It also does 9% HP DPS and 4.8% true damage HP DPS. IE build does 3.8% true damage HP DPS, 29.2 true damage DPS, and 879 raw DPS. Lets ignore the true damage for a moment and calculate everything as true. If that is the case then your build does 10% HP DPS more than the IE build does on top of its raw DPS. Such, your break even point is 3502. IE,PD,LW,BT does more damage to all targets below 3502 raw HP. If we want to calculate armor this gets a little complicated so lets only do it at one point. 150 armor. Final armor will be about 84. So we can just divide all the other values by 1.84 and recalculate. At 150 armor, IE does more damage to all targets below 2800 HP. Beyond this we can reasonably assume three things. 1) the break even value for targets between 150 and 0 armor will between 3500 and 2800 raw HP. 2) We won't ever actually see these values in practice, because typical vayne play will see tumble, aa, condemn or combinations of the three, which negate some of the value of attack speed by forcing attack resets and animation plays. 3) We won't every actually see the advantage of BotRK because attacking someone lowers their HP and because other allies will be doing/have done damage to those enemies. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 17 2013 13:12 Goumindong wrote: OK, so i think i know whats going on. You replaced IE with BotRK and PD with Hurricane. So lets use your IE numbers and use 290 damage for your build. Same Attack speed Your build does 522 raw, no ult single target DPS. Or 522+36 true damage DPS. It also does 9% HP DPS and 4.8% true damage HP DPS. IE build does 3.8% true damage HP DPS, 29.2 true damage DPS, and 879 raw DPS. Lets ignore the true damage for a moment and calculate everything as true. If that is the case then your build does 10% HP DPS more than the IE build does on top of its raw DPS. Such, your break even point is 3502. IE,PD,LW,BT does more damage to all targets below 3502 raw HP. If we want to calculate armor this gets a little complicated so lets only do it at one point. 150 armor. Final armor will be about 84. So we can just divide all the other values by 1.84 and recalculate. At 150 armor, IE does more damage to all targets below 2800 HP. Beyond this we can reasonably assume three things. 1) the break even value for targets between 150 and 0 armor will between 3500 and 2800 raw HP. 2) We won't ever actually see these values in practice, because typical vayne play will see tumble, aa, condemn or combinations of the three, which negate some of the value of attack speed by forcing attack resets and animation plays. 3) We won't every actually see the advantage of BotRK because attacking someone lowers their HP and because other allies will be doing/have done damage to those enemies. I don't see what armor does for the builds since both builds do pure physical damage and both have a LW. | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
I'm talking about rushing BotRK as a first item though... Why? Xypherous, and the math is saying that its completely lackluster to get before midgame. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 17 2013 13:33 obesechicken13 wrote: I don't see what armor does for the builds since both builds do pure physical damage and both have a LW. Armor changes the relative value of true damage. Since the builds do not have the same attack speed, the build with the higher attack speed will proc more silver bolts which means it will have higher true damage DPS. Since they have different true damage DPS the build with the higher true damage will perform better the higher the enemies armor. This is seen with the HP breakpoint calculation which solves (I.E. the point at which build 1's DPS= build 2's DPS, above which build 1 does more DPS and below which build 2 does more DPS) DPS1/armor=DPS2/armor for Max Hit Points We can reduce this to Raw DPS1/Armor +.01 HP +.09 HP/armor =Raw DPS2/armor Or .01 *HP *armor +.09 HP = DPS2-DPS1 HP= (DPS2-DPS1) / (.01 armor+.09) Where armor is (1+ after reduction armor). We might further note that this is a strictly decreasing function in armor though it is non-linear. (edit: and there is no value for which the breakpoint is zero) edit2: We might want to add a time dimension to this as higher base damage will cause a damage spike which must be overcome, but that kind of evaluation tends to be messy even if it can give you precise ranges for which each build is superior. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 17 2013 14:08 Goumindong wrote: Armor changes the relative value of true damage. Since the builds do not have the same attack speed, the build with the higher attack speed will proc more silver bolts which means it will have higher true damage DPS. Since they have different true damage DPS the build with the higher true damage will perform better the higher the enemies armor. This is seen with the HP breakpoint calculation which solves (I.E. the point at which build 1's DPS= build 2's DPS, above which build 1 does more DPS and below which build 2 does more DPS) DPS1/armor=DPS2/armor for Max Hit Points We can reduce this to Raw DPS1/Armor +.01 HP +.09 HP/armor =Raw DPS2/armor Or .01 *HP *armor +.09 HP = DPS2-DPS1 HP= (DPS2-DPS1) / (.01 armor+.09) Where armor is (1+ after reduction armor). We might further note that this is a strictly decreasing function in armor though it is non-linear. (edit: and there is no value for which the breakpoint is zero) edit2: We might want to add a time dimension to this as higher base damage will cause a damage spike which must be overcome, but that kind of evaluation tends to be messy even if it can give you precise ranges for which each build is superior. Oh I see. You're using Vayne. Still it's hard to see the difference when you say it contributes 3.8% of the total damage. With levels, serks, and PD vs Runaan's the difference is negligible. Definitely not going to make the difference between 2800 and 3500 life as a breakeven point. I agree with your conclusions though. I still believe someone on the team should be getting an IE build just because it scales significantly better at single target damage. Runaan's in general scales well off of area of effect damage. BotRK isn't a good item late game compared to IE PD. I don't like the number crunching in this thread and I feel like it has a lot of flaws that are often left out just to try to show a point. I'll be sticking to my guns. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 17 2013 14:31 obesechicken13 wrote: Oh I see. You're using Vayne. Still it's hard to see the difference when you say it contributes 3.8% of the total damage. With levels, serks, and PD vs Runaan's the difference is negligible. Definitely not going to make the difference between 2800 and 3500 life as a breakeven point. Its a 1% of enemies max HP DPS advantage, not 3.8% of total damage. 150 armor makes the difference between 2800 HP breakpoint and a 3500 HP breakpoint. Disagree all you want but that is the math, and the math doesn't lie | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 17 2013 14:46 Goumindong wrote: Its a 1% of enemies max HP DPS advantage, not 3.8% of total damage. 150 armor makes the difference between 2800 HP breakpoint and a 3500 HP breakpoint. Disagree all you want but that is the math, and the math doesn't lie BotRK build: You said 522 was the base physical damage of this build ignoring hp effects 84 is the amount of armor the target has after armor pen effects I have no idea where this 36 true damage is coming from I have no idea what your items are or what your runes are so I just have to take your words on all the items 522*100/184+36=284+36=241.5 the damage done after armor calculatons Also you say 9% of the target's current hp will be done as dps from BotRK. You do qualify that your target will not always have full life but you use this value to find the breakeven point. 252 = 9% of 2800 252*100/184=136 the damage after armor calculations You say Vayne gets 4.8% of the target's max HP as dps from silver bolts. Of course this isn't accurate either since Vayne doesn't get percentage damage on each attack, resulting in overkill. And of course she often has to switch targets. 134 = 4.8% 241.5+136+134=511 Then with the IE build: 879*100/184+29=478+29=506.7. Again I have no idea where this 29 true damage comes from, but the numbers check out almost. I was confused because your work is so hard to follow as you don't show a great deal of it. I did think you were saying 3.8% total damage caused such a large gap. You just ignored Vayne's silver bolts for the IE build. Vayne's ult is not taken into account. Assuming 120 damage on vayne with runes and levels, 40 from BotRK, 100 from BT, 40 from LW, you still reach 300 AD not 290. Doing these calculations in the first place is useless when you consider how much less damage BotRK does as the opponent's life goes down. The disclaimer is so large it invalidates the work. It's like saying "students who tried focus factor scored 20% higher on tests**" **The group scored 28% higher before using focus factor. At the very least you could have said that you assumed that BotRK's passive would work at half effectiveness since it was based on current instead of max hp. But even this wouldn't be accurate as it doesn't take into account how frontloaded damage is. And 150 armor is on the lower side for most tanks/bruisers but on the high side for squishy AD carries at 6 items. I personally have not changed my conclusion. Crit builds still do more single target damage. Runaan's still causes any build to have more potential damage if you are attacking 2/3 targets. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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JonGalt
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
W00T!! Chaox gonna step up his game and adapt/learn. Watch out world. TSM is comin' for you! | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On February 17 2013 16:21 JonGalt wrote: "@ChaoxLoL: INC almost complete overhaul of my champion pool. HOY" W00T!! Chaox gonna step up his game and adapt/learn. Watch out world. TSM is comin' for you! wat | ||
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