[Patch 3.02: Fake Quinn] General Discussion - Page 140

On February 26 2013 08:51 AsnSensation wrote:
cool, just watched the Ionian vs Noxus match which was linked in the Guardsman Bob Interivew and Neo was playing Amumu, what a big shot. hehe

On February 26 2013 09:01 TheLink wrote:
Apologies for the long post but I like to bring up analogies to Magic:the Gathering design for other games because they've already encountered and overcome most of the problems video games come up with many, many years ago.

Years ago a magic deck called affinity was dominating the scene, it was a lightning fast artifact-based aggressive deck. Players everywhere were screaming to ban it but Wizards of the Coast wouldn't do it, for at least 6 months Wizards just let everything fix itself. They showed stats and graphs that affinity was perceived as more oppressive than it actually was, it's winrate wasn't too high, it was only played by about 20% of players and the pro's tended to innovate strong decks designed to prey on all the kids just picking affinity because it was "OP". Despite all this they still eventually banned affinity.

"Your game is not fun" - Aaron Forscythe, head of MtG design

This was the worst criticism that could be leveled at a game. It isn't a catering to filthy casuals thing, it is straight up what makes people play your game, casually or competitively. It doesn't matter that affinity was actually balanced and fitting neatly into a (relatively) healthy metagame. The vast majority of players hated it and believed it was ruining the game for them, this obviously drove some number of them away.


This has direct correlations to LoL design philosophy and really, any other game. AP Tryndamere probably isn't OP, he isn't tearing up the proscene. I don't know his solo-queue win-rate but I can't imagine it being even close to the top of the list. Riot should be (and is) balancing the game around what makes it fun though. It isn't a matter of balance, it's a matter of building a game that people want to play.

On February 26 2013 09:01 TheLink wrote:
Apologies for the long post but I like to bring up analogies to Magic:the Gathering design for other games because they've already encountered and overcome most of the problems video games come up with many, many years ago.

Years ago a magic deck called affinity was dominating the scene, it was a lightning fast artifact-based aggressive deck. Players everywhere were screaming to ban it but Wizards of the Coast wouldn't do it, for at least 6 months Wizards just let everything fix itself. They showed stats and graphs that affinity was perceived as more oppressive than it actually was, it's winrate wasn't too high, it was only played by about 20% of players and the pro's tended to innovate strong decks designed to prey on all the kids just picking affinity because it was "OP". Despite all this they still eventually banned affinity.

"Your game is not fun" - Aaron Forscythe, head of MtG design

This was the worst criticism that could be leveled at a game. It isn't a catering to filthy casuals thing, it is straight up what makes people play your game, casually or competitively. It doesn't matter that affinity was actually balanced and fitting neatly into a (relatively) healthy metagame. The vast majority of players hated it and believed it was ruining the game for them, this obviously drove some number of them away.


This has direct correlations to LoL design philosophy and really, any other game. AP Tryndamere probably isn't OP, he isn't tearing up the proscene. I don't know his solo-queue win-rate but I can't imagine it being even close to the top of the list. Riot should be (and is) balancing the game around what makes it fun though. It isn't a matter of balance, it's a matter of building a game that people want to play.

On February 26 2013 09:07 cLutZ wrote:


The fun-ness comes from both sides. For instance, while Darius might not be fun to play against, he is pretty fun to play as. A triple-dunk-triple-kill is very satisfying (to some extent Nidalee Spears are similar). Whereas Teemo and AP Trynd (and others like Shen) are not all that satisfying to play compared to the grief caused. Splitpush is annoying to play against, not fun to play as, and lame to spectate.

On February 26 2013 09:09 TheYango wrote:
Again, I don't think there's anything incongruent about hotfixing really degenerate issues. That doesn't preclude the idea of a long patch cycle at all.

The thing is there are a lot of times that things are popular just because people are going with the flow, not because they're degenerate or overpowered in anyway. It's pointless and counterproductive to nerf those things.

Affinity was in the game long enough for people to know that it was truly degenerate, and not people just going with the flow. Three week patch cycles are not long enough to determine this.

On February 26 2013 09:18 Infundibulum wrote:


I enjoy the strategic aspect of split pushing. There's more to winning LoL games than just teamfights.

On February 26 2013 06:36 kainzero wrote:
i think there were two major patches in BW

2007 - python came out
2009 - fighting spirit came out

but seriously speaking, maps are a huge part of the game being balanced

On February 26 2013 08:50 Slaughter wrote:
Who are the Koreans running in jungle then besides Xin if they are ignoring Hec/Vi/J4?