EPTEdit: This has happened on multiple occasions and soured people to Riot's approach to balance.
[Patch 3.02: Fake Quinn] General Discussion - Page 112
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
Edit: This has happened on multiple occasions and soured people to Riot's approach to balance. | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
but especially the W change made her much stronger. i think riot allready slowed down a bit and is trying to keep champions trademark skills intact. For example ez never got his E teleport nerfed recently, only attack speed stuff. And i rly dont care if they nerf tryndamere unjustifiedly, if i had anything to say there would be a new report category "played ap trynd" | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On February 23 2013 03:55 LaNague wrote: i think release rivens W had longer animation than stun and Q might also have been weaker by not covering as much ground. but especially the W change made her much stronger. The W stun had a 0.5 sec cast time (was reduced to 0.25 cast time) so it was REALLY shitty, especially since it was not only so long compared to the stun, but it was also very vulnerable to evasion. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On February 23 2013 03:51 KissBlade wrote: Release Riven sucked cause her W was completely unusable and her animations were clunky as hell. W is still clunky as hell. End lag out the ass. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
especially after vi gets her nerfs | ||
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
On February 23 2013 02:29 Ketara wrote: Balancing champions increases diversity by making it so the only junglers you ever see aren't Vi/Xin/Jarvan/Hecarim. Your post makes no sense. Your post is the one that makes no sense. There will be more played champions then others, don't bring balance into the discussion. Judging by your logic, anything with a high pick rate is worthy of a nerf. Why don't you go on lolking and check out how wrong you are. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On February 23 2013 03:19 Capriccioso wrote: Even just partially reverting the jungle changes might bring back aoe clearers like Shyvana and Mundo. i dunno about shy since i don't really like her (as much as i tried), but i tried playing as mundo and he still seems to be in a good spot. i think his weakness is his first clear, but after that it's smooth sailing. i imagine the problem being that the other team should know that and will be relatively safe until the 5 minute mark. i think riven's weakness is her squishiness. she might be a bully in lane, but out of lane phase it's very tough for her to engage safely, and tank riven is underwhelming. i don't think that she's terrible, but it does require a little bit more finesse for her to be played in 5s. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
She was godlike S2 because her free resists enabled her to outscale damage super hard. The nerf to her ult, as well as the pen changes made this much harder to do. The overal changes shouldnt effect her very much. Her q is an absurd single target steroid, and combine that with a fast madreds she has no problem with speed. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:04 birdkicker wrote: Your post is the one that makes no sense. There will be more played champions then others, don't bring balance into the discussion. Judging by your logic, anything with a high pick rate is worthy of a nerf. Why don't you go on lolking and check out how wrong you are. Than** Also. There may be confounding variables like bads only being able to follow the meta to stay at their elo. Theoretically I think win rates should level off. Eg if you play only Jax and you're 1500 elo with him, you'll eventually get to a 50% win rate with him. Same with a 1200 elo Jax. Nerfing by what is considered OP serves to incite discussion and appeases the masses. Nerfing by winrates does the same thing. Nerfing by popularity has the chance to increase champion diversity regardless of whether or not it makes the game balanced. The game is too complicated to understand well what needs and doesn't need changes. The best we can do is be subjective and hope for the best. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 23 2013 03:55 LaNague wrote: i think release rivens W had longer animation than stun and Q might also have been weaker by not covering as much ground. but especially the W change made her much stronger. i think riot allready slowed down a bit and is trying to keep champions trademark skills intact. For example ez never got his E teleport nerfed recently, only attack speed stuff. And i rly dont care if they nerf tryndamere unjustifiedly, if i had anything to say there would be a new report category "played ap trynd" I agree on tryndamere, some nerf are needed for sure. My point was not really that nerf are bad to the game, but that instant nerfing a fotm is a bad idea because it doesn't let time for people to learn how to apprehend it, and that most people don't like cookie cutter hero that are really strong in specific situations and that snowball like crazy, such as riven, but that their "all or nothing" design makes games interesting to watch. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
First: That isnt the way they want the champ to be played. While not necessarily a good design motivation, I think we have seen through the history of lol balancing that Riot DOES have a goal for the way they want to see a certain champ played, and then they engage in balancing in order to push that champ into that role. Secondly: the different way the champ is being played is promoting a style of play that Riot doesnt like. Riot hates split pushing. They do everything they can to stop it. The combination of the 2 are what is driving quick nerfs here IMO. For example: Kassadin was originally intended to be a melee DPS, but people began to use his ratios as a burst caster. There Riot was apparently ok with the change, and even began do do their thing when they pushed him towards that role. Contrast that with Teemo. He has always been in his role (annoying little bastard), but Riot has always prevented him from fully working to that style by gimping his ability to split push. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:04 VayneAuthority wrote: I would just compare riven to vi, they are remarkably similar in terms of what happened to them especially after vi gets her nerfs Uh? Did you look at the PBE nerfs for Vi? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23404 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:16 Two_DoWn wrote: Shyv doesnt work ATM cuz of the pen changes. She was godlike S2 because her free resists enabled her to outscale damage super hard. The nerf to her ult, as well as the pen changes made this much harder to do. The overal changes shouldnt effect her very much. Her q is an absurd single target steroid, and combine that with a fast madreds she has no problem with speed. lol pen changes shyvana started to lose popularity well before s3, its just she was often used because you still needed AoE to clear fast and its no longer the case now because aoe is almost pointless since the little creeps have so little hp. she's still prolly good top lane though but nobody tried it since darien pen got weaker if you were getting flat pen, and resists got more expensive, so it evens out pretty much for shyv. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
What is balance? What is imbalanced? In the context of an RTS game, I don't think it's wrong to say that "imbalance" arises when one side or another has an advantage through an aspect of the game irrelevant to their skill (racial imbalance--one player happens to have chosen to learn the stronger race; map imbalance, randomly starting in a better spawn location, etc.). But in the context of a MOBA game, this is a little bit muddled. Unlike Starcraft (where it's assumed that most players will learn only 1 race), there's an implicit assumption that players will learn many champions. In a 5v5 game, it is not so easy to decide that a single champion provides the type of unfair advantage that we'd label imbalance, particularly with bans/interwoven picks. What's more, drafting and champion selection are skills in the game, so it cannot be said that picking powerful champions is totally disjoined from "skill". So in the context of a MOBA game, we aren't looking so much for "is this imbalanced" (the cases where imbalance really sticks out are few, far between, and fairly obvious), but rather the question of "does this produce gameplay we dislike?" Is this the kind of direction we want to see the game progress in? This includes the draft--a champion that has an oppressive presence on the draft and demands bans simplifies the draft phase by effectively removing one pick from the game. The issue of AP Tryndamere is that while it's probably not imbalanced, it clearly produces gameplay which Riot dislikes (and it wouldn't be wrong to say that players dislike it either). Obviously this is vastly more subjective than simply the issue of "is this champion too strong or too weak?" But I think if you rationalize Riot's changes to champions in this regard, a lot of them start to make more sense. It still doesn't address the issue of them making changes too quickly, though. EDIT: This doesn't rationalize everything, though. Riot still has their fair share of "we want to take the game in this direction"-type changes that are coupled/followed-up with changes that are totally contradictory to that goal. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The problem I have is that I think the first goal I pointed out, it wasnt the way they wanted the champ played, is a bit TOO important with a lot of the balance changes that Riot makes. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:36 Two_DoWn wrote: I think Riot's problems with tryndamere are 2 fold First: That isnt the way they want the champ to be played. While not necessarily a good design motivation, I think we have seen through the history of lol balancing that Riot DOES have a goal for the way they want to see a certain champ played, and then they engage in balancing in order to push that champ into that role. Secondly: the different way the champ is being played is promoting a style of play that Riot doesnt like. Riot hates split pushing. They do everything they can to stop it. The combination of the 2 are what is driving quick nerfs here IMO. For example: Kassadin was originally intended to be a melee DPS, but people began to use his ratios as a burst caster. There Riot was apparently ok with the change, and even began do do their thing when they pushed him towards that role. Contrast that with Teemo. He has always been in his role (annoying little bastard), but Riot has always prevented him from fully working to that style by gimping his ability to split push. The issue is that the way they want Trynd to be played is more or less unviable and has been for the better part of a year or longer. You can call it "out of meta" or whatever, but it's been bad in however many metas we've had since S2 started or maybe even earlier. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:47 Scip wrote: Who even played Shyvana apart from Saint and I think Diamondprox played her a few times? Like she was never really played very often I don't think, I am not sure if she ever really was that good of a jungler. There was a big Shyvana FotM on NA for a while after Saint and Diamond started winning with her. I remember TSM had Oddone play her a bunch of times even though he was absolutely god-awful at her, but they would insist on first-picking her because she was the big FotM at the time. On February 23 2013 04:48 Two_DoWn wrote: The problem I have is that I think the first goal I pointed out, it wasnt the way they wanted the champ played, is a bit TOO important with a lot of the balance changes that Riot makes. Yes, Riot tends to over-philosophize about what they believe will be fun or un-fun for their players. I've said this for quite a long time. The fact that multiple designers have gone out of their way to more or less codify their "design philosophies" speaks volumes about this. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:49 TheYango wrote: There was a big Shyvana FotM on NA for a while after Saint and Diamond started winning with her. I remember TSM had Oddone play her a bunch of times even though he was absolutely god-awful at her, but they would insist on first-picking her because she was the big FotM at the time. Yes, Riot tends to over-philosophize about what they believe will be fun or un-fun for their players. I've said this for quite a long time. Fuck them. I was original Dragonbitch lover. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
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