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Let me put it in another way. You cannot expect the game (the players) to react and learn how to counter a hero / play style / cheese as soon as it gets out. Just like in BW or SC2, when someone finds a new strat, you will most likely see that after a year or two, everybody will find it completly fine at the higher level of play (it will still give nightmare to low level player).
What would have happened if the game was patched as soon as the strategy is out ? You are just making sure nobody play something else that the current meta. Nerf Vi ? People will play Jarvan and not Warwick. Nerf Jarvan ? They will play xin. Nerf xin ? They will play amumu, or maokai, or whatever old meta champion.
Do you think that if you nerf all current support, people will start playing karma ? lol No.
Vi is three month old, Riven is unknown in competitive play, and it was the case even before the last nerf on her ult. Why would ou nerf that ? How would it help the diversity in the game ?
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That at least doesn't come off as "Everyone but me is an idiot."
It's just the argument of how long do you wait before introducing a balance patch. Sometimes it's good to wait and sometimes things need to be fixed. I don't have the data to support either side of the coin. But it would be good to remember that Riot does have that data, and needs to balance the game for more than just professional play if people are going to keep playing/watching it. So calling them idiots is probably not warranted.
In other news, I thought we mathed out the Riven passive change as being pretty clearly a buff unless you were hellaciously fed.
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On February 23 2013 02:27 WhiteDog wrote:
People who wants Riven or Vi to get nerfed makes me giggles. Most of the times, the real problem is that they just don t brain when they play against them. Yeah some champ are strong at some moment of the game, big deal. Yeah some champ are strong in 1vs1 and needs some tactics to be taken down. Kill all diversity for the sake of balance, so let s play a game with 5 hero, one for every position.
I'm a Vi player and she's been my jungle main since she's out. Nerf doesn't mean kill.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2013 02:59 Ketara wrote:
It's just the argument of how long do you wait before introducing a balance patch. Sometimes it's good to wait and sometimes things need to be fixed. I don't have the data to support either side of the coin. But it would be good to remember that Riot does have that data, and needs to balance the game for more than just professional play if people are going to keep playing/watching it. So calling them idiots is probably not warranted.
This gets brought up a lot, but I don't really think its a strong argument. It's VERY speculative to say that having a less aggressive patch/FotM nerfing cycle would cause them to lose players/viewers/RP sales.
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I do agree that I would like to see some Warwick/otherjunglernobodyuses buffs.
And I also agree that Riot seems to be much quicker to introduce and then nerf crazy strong champions than they are to buff older champions. But keep in mind that it's easier from a design perspective to nerf something than to buff something. When something is OP you can see what the problem is and know what to fix. When something is bad and needs buffs you have to do more guessing.
Not to mention they way they're doing it probably makes them more money.
Just don't come off as saying they're all morons. All I'm saying.
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On February 23 2013 02:59 Ketara wrote:
That at least doesn't come off as "Everyone but me is an idiot."
It's just the argument of how long do you wait before introducing a balance patch. Sometimes it's good to wait and sometimes things need to be fixed. I don't have the data to support either side of the coin. But it would be good to remember that Riot does have that data, and needs to balance the game for more than just professional play if people are going to keep playing/watching it. So calling them idiots is probably not warranted.
In other news, I thought we mathed out the Riven passive change as being pretty clearly a buff unless you were hellaciously fed.
I never said everyone but me is an idiot. Did someone told you you were an idiot and marked you for life ? You don't have to feel this way, cheer up.
People don't play specific champ only for its efficiency in game, and Riot does not nerf and buff heroes out of their will to balance the game, that's what I was saying. Most people hate on specific heroes because they have hard time playing against it, that does not mean it is imba. Different champ ask for different qualities. It's easier to lane against shen, irelia or jax, because, as good as they are, their architecture is somehow closer to "usuals" top, and it's not the case for a riven of zed who have their own taste and are also newer to the game.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2013 03:06 Ketara wrote:
And I also agree that Riot seems to be much quicker to introduce and then nerf crazy strong champions than they are to buff older champions. But keep in mind that it's easier from a design perspective to nerf something than to buff something. When something is OP you can see what the problem is and know what to fix. When something is bad and needs buffs you have to do more guessing.
No you don't, lol. One of the hallmarks of Riot's overly reactionary nerfs has always been hitting the champ repeatedly in ways that don't address the problem.
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On February 23 2013 02:29 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 02:27 WhiteDog wrote:
People who wants Riven or Vi to get nerfed makes me giggles. Most of the times, the real problem is that they just don t brain when they play against them. Yeah some champ are strong at some moment of the game, big deal. Yeah some champ are strong in 1vs1 and needs some tactics to be taken down. Kill all diversity for the sake of balance. Balancing champions increases diversity by making it so the only junglers you ever see aren't Vi/Xin/Jarvan/Hecarim. Your post makes no sense.
is that because pro players only play those 4?
i mean sometimes all it is is just league of copycat, and when the main forum of play is solo queue which moves abysmally slow in terms of the meta...
i dunno if i'm playing Vi wrong but it definitely seems like she's not OP, i can imagine her pubstomping but in competitive she seems to be in a good spot
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United States23745 Posts
On February 22 2013 20:01 JonGalt wrote:
Just watched GameCrib episode 1 (I am at an internet cafe. 240p FTW). So awesome!! Can't wait to watch more of these.
Quick Question. If I were to watch ANY game from the EU or NA LCS, which one should I watch?
CLG v dig was really good.
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On February 23 2013 02:55 WhiteDog wrote:
Let me put it in another way. You cannot expect the game (the players) to react and learn how to counter a hero / play style / cheese as soon as it gets out. Just like in BW or SC2, when someone finds a new strat, you will most likely see that after a year or two, everybody will find it completly fine at the higher level of play (it will still give nightmare to low level player).
What would have happened if the game was patched as soon as the strategy is out ? You are just making sure nobody play something else that the current meta. Nerf Vi ? People will play Jarvan and not Warwick. Nerf Jarvan ? They will play xin. Nerf xin ? They will play amumu, or maokai, or whatever old meta champion.
Do you think that if you nerf all current support, people will start playing karma ? lol No.
Vi is three month old, Riven is unknown in competitive play, and it was the case even before the last nerf on her ult. Why would ou nerf that ? How would it help the diversity in the game ?
Because Riven has been relegated to SoloQ by her design. Like Darius, if you she got ahead and knocked you out of lane she could keep knocking you out of lane through killing your or forcing you to back. It was bullshit. Riot needs to figure out what they want to do with Riven. They keep trying to tweak her...they should either leave her alone or rework her.
This, by the way, is coming from a Riven main.
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Vi's not broken, but she's ahead of the curve. She gets a lot, all of her skills give her a lot even at level 1 (well, her E relies on her W to bring a lot to the table, but that's the idea). She doesn't have to be gutted: just remove a bit of the power she gets from her early abilities (I'd mainly say damage on Q, or base %HP damage on W) so her power curve is a bit smoother, and that's all. We're not talking about bullshit like release Jayce or Riven here.
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release riven sucked hard and they overbuffed her
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Most of the current fotm junglers (Xin, J4, Vi) got to fotm because of the change to jungle camps to favor single target junglers. Hec might be popular because of AutisticRobotXJ9 and because people realized he might have as much teamfight presence as amumu with his ult and his W making him a god.
Even just partially reverting the jungle changes might bring back aoe clearers like Shyvana and Mundo.
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On February 23 2013 03:19 Capriccioso wrote:
Most of the current fotm junglers (Xin, J4, Vi) got to fotm because of the change to jungle camps to favor single target junglers. Hec might be popular because of AutisticRobotXJ9 and because people realized he might have as much teamfight presence as amumu with his ult and his W making him a god.
I like you.
Stick around.
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United States15536 Posts
On February 23 2013 03:19 Capriccioso wrote:
AutisticRobotXJ9
Lololololol. Perfection.
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Personally, I just take the nerfs as part of the game. Just like how MtG is going to have new sets every 3 months whether you like it or not, the FotM champs are going to be nerfed every 2-3 weeks.
The challenge is finding a good champ that people don't know about. As we've seen in the past, Riot refuses to nerf OP champs that happen to be unpopular at the moment. If you find a good sleeper OP champion, don't tell anyone about it!
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On February 23 2013 03:19 Capriccioso wrote:
AutisticRobotXJ9
you sir are a gentleman and a scholar.
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On February 23 2013 03:15 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 02:55 WhiteDog wrote:
Let me put it in another way. You cannot expect the game (the players) to react and learn how to counter a hero / play style / cheese as soon as it gets out. Just like in BW or SC2, when someone finds a new strat, you will most likely see that after a year or two, everybody will find it completly fine at the higher level of play (it will still give nightmare to low level player).
What would have happened if the game was patched as soon as the strategy is out ? You are just making sure nobody play something else that the current meta. Nerf Vi ? People will play Jarvan and not Warwick. Nerf Jarvan ? They will play xin. Nerf xin ? They will play amumu, or maokai, or whatever old meta champion.
Do you think that if you nerf all current support, people will start playing karma ? lol No.
Vi is three month old, Riven is unknown in competitive play, and it was the case even before the last nerf on her ult. Why would ou nerf that ? How would it help the diversity in the game ? Because Riven has been relegated to SoloQ by her design. Like Darius, if you she got ahead and knocked you out of lane she could keep knocking you out of lane through killing your or forcing you to back. It was bullshit. Riot needs to figure out what they want to do with Riven. They keep trying to tweak her...they should either leave her alone or rework her. This, by the way, is coming from a Riven main.
In WC3, you had a hero (le blademaster) that crushed any other hero in 1vs1 and most Orc only played around it : they built units that could lock down opponents heroes and that could give more resistance to that bad ass, and heroes that could heal the blade master.
Orc vs Orc was basically the same two composition against each others, was kinda ridiculous and low level players could not do shit against that kind of strategy because they just could not deal with it.
And then people learned how to play against that kind of cookie cuter strat, by lifting this imba hero in the air for exemple (night elf), by stacking pots on their champions or by just improving their micro management.
I don't think Riven is relegated to soloQ by her design, I think she is good in soloq, and bad in the highest level of play, because people deal with her at the highest level of play and knows when they can and when they cannot fight against her. To say it in another, she is cheesy, but cheese is also part of the game and makes it interesting in a way.
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On February 23 2013 03:17 Slayer91 wrote:
release riven sucked hard and they overbuffed her
Not really.
September 20, 2011 Hotfix:
Stats: Attack speed per level increased to 3.5 from 2.9.
Base armor increased to 15 from 12.
Broken Wings: Bonus attack damage ratio increased to 0.7 from 0.6.
Ki Burst: Cast time reduced to 0.25 from 0.5.
Valor:
Shield strength increased to 60/90/120/150/180 from 40/70/100/130/160.
Cooldown reduced to 10/9/8/7/6 seconds from 11/10/9/8/7.
Wind Slash:
Cast time reduced to 0.25 from 0.5.
Projectile speed increased to 2200 from 2000.
Of all of those things the biggest change IMO would be the scaling AD, but even then that is only .6 ad per level.
In the totality, sure, those are some nice buffs. But I disagree with any argument that she was overbuffed. I think the case with riven was simply learning the proper way to trade with her and how to dominate a lane.
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Release Riven sucked cause her W was completely unusable and her animations were clunky as hell.
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EPT
