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On February 22 2013 18:10 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:04 Capriccioso wrote:
I don't see broken design in trading low base stats for high scaling ratios. Is it that manaless champions are bad design? Many mana champions don't have relevant mana costs anyway. It is the manaless shield, the high scaling ratios, mixed with the fact that originally she had strong base stats and boxcar numbers. With how her kit works now she either too strong, or too weak. No middle ground.
The manaless shield and high ratios regulate her to crappy base stats(they only nerfed hp/5 and move speed) and force her into building in a style unfitting for top lane. She's an assassin masquerading as a fighter.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
Someone mentioned Morgan Freeman.
Can we get a champ with his voice? Instabuy for me, no matter what the champ is.
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On February 22 2013 18:20 JonGalt wrote:
Someone mentioned Morgan Freeman.
Can we get a champ with his voice? Instabuy for me, no matter what the champ is.
Only if he narrates his actions.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
And I am here to save the discussion from a poorly dubbed interview.
IPL is for sale. Who wants to chip in with me and buy it? IPL7 in Lesotho anyone?
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On February 22 2013 18:29 JonGalt wrote:
And I am here to save the discussion from a poorly dubbed interview.
IPL is for sale. Who wants to chip in with me and buy it? IPL7 in Lesotho anyone?
Only if 8 goes back to AC.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On February 22 2013 18:22 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:20 JonGalt wrote:
Someone mentioned Morgan Freeman.
Can we get a champ with his voice? Instabuy for me, no matter what the champ is. Only if he narrates his actions.
Perfect!
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On February 22 2013 18:30 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:29 JonGalt wrote:
And I am here to save the discussion from a poorly dubbed interview.
IPL is for sale. Who wants to chip in with me and buy it? IPL7 in Lesotho anyone? Only if 8 goes back to AC.
Again, perfect!
Same wavelength today Gahlo.
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On February 22 2013 18:31 JonGalt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:30 Gahlo wrote:On February 22 2013 18:29 JonGalt wrote:
And I am here to save the discussion from a poorly dubbed interview.
IPL is for sale. Who wants to chip in with me and buy it? IPL7 in Lesotho anyone? Only if 8 goes back to AC. Again, perfect! Same wavelength today Gahlo.
It's the baylife.
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On February 22 2013 18:15 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:10 iCanada wrote:On February 22 2013 18:04 Capriccioso wrote:
I don't see broken design in trading low base stats for high scaling ratios. Is it that manaless champions are bad design? Many mana champions don't have relevant mana costs anyway. It is the manaless shield, the high scaling ratios, mixed with the fact that originally she had strong base stats and boxcar numbers. With how her kit works now she either too strong, or too weak. No middle ground. The manaless shield and high ratios regulate her to crappy base stats(they only nerfed hp/5 and move speed) and force her into building in a style unfitting for top lane. She's an assassin masquerading as a fighter.
Well, technically her base stats were low-ish back in the day, but when she was released she definitely had one of the stronger level 1s even. I dunno about now, havn't played top or riven in forever, but not many champs can out trade a level 1 riven, that passive is really strong. Can't even run because of the Q gap closer. I remember dunking Champs like Lee Sin and Olaf level 1. Only two champions I can't remember her just rickrolling level 1 when she was released was Panth and Xin Zhao, and no one played either champion.
In fact, when she was released everyone thought she was supposed to be built tanky, and thought of her as an early game terror like those two champions.
Thats not even really the point though, point is that manaless champions silly, especially getting a free shield on a low cool down. Even more so because of the fact that her mobility and ministun meant she could force trades all day every day; unless she loses trades hard because of the shield she comes out ahead. That, and the fact that her defensive options and offensives options lead to one most cost effective build for all intended playstyles to be the same. Even now in Warmogs heyday and with nerfs to her shield, she gets more eHP in your average teamfight from just straight up buying a BT than buying a warmogs, and she also gets a crazy amount more damage. That is poor design, in my opinion anyway.
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On February 22 2013 18:04 Capriccioso wrote:
I don't see broken design in trading low base stats for high scaling ratios. Is it that manaless champions are bad design? Many mana champions don't have relevant mana costs anyway.
welcome to TL, good luck in ivylol qualifier this weekend.
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On February 22 2013 18:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:04 Capriccioso wrote:
I don't see broken design in trading low base stats for high scaling ratios. Is it that manaless champions are bad design? Many mana champions don't have relevant mana costs anyway. welcome to TL, good luck in ivylol qualifier this weekend.
Thanks man, I like reading TL LoL because the derp ratio is considerably less than LoL GD or reddit.
Would you mind filling me in on your team's roster, positions, and champion pools. Maybe throw in some recorded games of your team's practices. Would be a nice gesture.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On February 22 2013 18:34 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:31 JonGalt wrote:On February 22 2013 18:30 Gahlo wrote:On February 22 2013 18:29 JonGalt wrote:
And I am here to save the discussion from a poorly dubbed interview.
IPL is for sale. Who wants to chip in with me and buy it? IPL7 in Lesotho anyone? Only if 8 goes back to AC. Again, perfect! Same wavelength today Gahlo. It's the baylife.
All day erryday.
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On February 22 2013 17:53 Capriccioso wrote:
Even though i am biased as a "high elo" Riven main, I think that the recent nerfs made her one of the worst champions and borderline tournament unviable. Any further nerfs would make her completely useless and reduce her to Olaf status.
There were no issues with Riven for a long time. Nerfs weren't needed. The problem is LoL player base are unwilling to do lane switches in solo queue, so then it ends up in 1v1's Riven is superior but is complete shit in 1v2 situations. Seriously, Riven is one of the shittiest 1v2 champs in the game, yet people are so fucking resistant to just doing a basic lane switch to counter the living fuck out of her. And then when their top laner gets completely lane bullied by Riven, they yell to Riot "RIVEN SO BROKEN, CARRY GAMES ALL DAY, ULTI SO OP'D, LOL MANALESS CHAMP DESIGN BROKEN" Rather than just do the 2v1.
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riven is not that bad 1v2, it's another LoL myth fed to the masses.
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On February 22 2013 19:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 17:53 Capriccioso wrote:
Even though i am biased as a "high elo" Riven main, I think that the recent nerfs made her one of the worst champions and borderline tournament unviable. Any further nerfs would make her completely useless and reduce her to Olaf status.
There were no issues with Riven for a long time. Nerfs weren't needed. The problem is LoL player base are unwilling to do lane switches in solo queue, so then it ends up in 1v1's Riven is superior but is complete shit in 1v2 situations. Seriously, Riven is one of the shittiest 1v2 champs in the game, yet people are so fucking resistant to just doing a basic lane switch to counter the living fuck out of her.
Even in standard 1v1 meta, right now I feel Riven is best suited mid, because like Talon, she has a lot of unfavorable matchups against standard bruisers. 1v2s are not necessary to counter.
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On February 22 2013 19:07 Capriccioso wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:02 wei2coolman wrote:On February 22 2013 17:53 Capriccioso wrote:
Even though i am biased as a "high elo" Riven main, I think that the recent nerfs made her one of the worst champions and borderline tournament unviable. Any further nerfs would make her completely useless and reduce her to Olaf status.
There were no issues with Riven for a long time. Nerfs weren't needed. The problem is LoL player base are unwilling to do lane switches in solo queue, so then it ends up in 1v1's Riven is superior but is complete shit in 1v2 situations. Seriously, Riven is one of the shittiest 1v2 champs in the game, yet people are so fucking resistant to just doing a basic lane switch to counter the living fuck out of her. Even in standard 1v1 meta, right now I feel Riven is best suited mid, because like Talon, she has a lot of unfavorable matchups against standard bruisers. 1v2s are not necessary to counter.
The matter is, is that there are obvious fucking counters to Riven; Yet Riot ignores the fact that there are already "solutions" to the problem; and just blatantly nerfs for no necessary reason.
Even if she's strong in mid; it's not hard to switch up lane meta, toss support + ADC in mid.
On February 22 2013 19:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
riven is not that bad 1v2, it's another LoL myth fed to the masses.
She's terrible 1v2. Not because she can't cs as well as others in 1v2 situation. The issue is that she needs that farm. What is she going to build? A locket? rofl. Riven with no farm is completely useless; as much as you guys like to poke fun at riven's ridiculous scaling; her base damage with no scaling is useless; She doesn't have the true dmg of Olaf, or the massive teamfight/tower control of Rumble, or the teamfighting of Malphite.
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On February 22 2013 18:37 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:15 Gahlo wrote:On February 22 2013 18:10 iCanada wrote:On February 22 2013 18:04 Capriccioso wrote:
I don't see broken design in trading low base stats for high scaling ratios. Is it that manaless champions are bad design? Many mana champions don't have relevant mana costs anyway. It is the manaless shield, the high scaling ratios, mixed with the fact that originally she had strong base stats and boxcar numbers. With how her kit works now she either too strong, or too weak. No middle ground. The manaless shield and high ratios regulate her to crappy base stats(they only nerfed hp/5 and move speed) and force her into building in a style unfitting for top lane. She's an assassin masquerading as a fighter. Well, technically her base stats were low-ish back in the day, but when she was released she definitely had one of the stronger level 1s even. I dunno about now, havn't played top or riven in forever, but not many champs can out trade a level 1 riven, that passive is really strong. Can't even run because of the Q gap closer. I remember dunking Champs like Lee Sin and Olaf level 1. Only two champions I can't remember her just rickrolling level 1 when she was released was Panth and Xin Zhao, and no one played either champion. In fact, when she was released everyone thought she was supposed to be built tanky, and thought of her as an early game terror like those two champions. Thats not even really the point though, point is that manaless champions silly, especially getting a free shield on a low cool down. Even more so because of the fact that her mobility and ministun meant she could force trades all day every day; unless she loses trades hard because of the shield she comes out ahead. That, and the fact that her defensive options and offensives options lead to one most cost effective build for all intended playstyles to be the same. Even now in Warmogs heyday and with nerfs to her shield, she gets more eHP in your average teamfight from just straight up buying a BT than buying a warmogs, and she also gets a crazy amount more damage. That is poor design, in my opinion anyway.
Most of this post is false, I will say that level 1 trades don't exist because of minion damage and that it is ludicrous that BT makes you tankier than warmogs.
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When you 1v2, it doesnt mean you'll never get farm, it'll just mean you have to wait for levels to cs. Nothing about her suggests that she needs gold more than other top laners. There's also brutalizer thats a very cost efficient damage item on every champion with good AD scaling. In this game, levels > all.
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riven can 1v2. some 1v2s also have the opportunity to jump on the enemy with a well timed gank from their jungler etc. a level 3 gank with a jungler and/or a tp from mid and a level 2-3 riven is super good at assisting those for obvious reasons.
indeed, after the first tower or first bloods go down, 1v2s end up getting quite a while to catch up on farm unless they deliberately want to follow the 2 for a given reason (cannot 1v1 the enemy 1v2 for a while, better to suppress his cs development at the expense of one's own, etc.) all dependent on towers going down and how the game is flowing.
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EPT
